Wiki leaks Avijacija i PVO


Wiki leaks Avijacija i PVO

  • Pridružio: 17 Feb 2010
  • Poruke: 428

Pa da pocnemo od npr. Gripena i Svedjana:

Citat:{¶}4. (C) Regarding the possibility of Sweden sending JAS Gripen fighters to Afghanistan, Ahlin said the Social Democrats had told the Moderate-led Alliance government they would not agree to this mission. Afghanis would not be able to distinguish Swedish planes from those of countries engaged in combat operations in Iraq, per Ahlin. Note: The Swedish military continues to argue for a Gripen mission to Afghanistan, Kosovo and the Balkans ----------------------

Prodaja Rafala Brazilu, politicki pritisci, cena aviona, transfer tehnologije, F-18 izbor oruzanih snaga, nuklearne podmornice:

DE RUEHFR #1526/01 3211521
P 171521Z NOV 09
Tuesday, 17 November 2009, 15:21
C O N F I D E N T I A L PARIS 001526
EO 12958 DECL: 11/12/2019

{¶}6. (C) The close relationship between Sarkozy and Lula grew from solid foundations. As France’s leading trade partner in Latin America, Brazil hosts over 420 French companies which employ approximately 400,000 people. French exports totaled over $5 billion and Brazilian exports to France over $6 billion in 2008. The Brazilians have a well established military relationship with the French that dates back to the mid-1980s, most recently including a $12 billion arms and technology transfer deal passed by the Brazilian Senate on September 3, in which France will help Brasilia establish their nascent nuclear submarine program, according to Brazilian Embassy sources in Paris.
{¶}7. (C) In addition, Brazil is France’s leading regional partner for cultural, scientific, and technical cooperation. Three French secondary schools in Sao Paolo, Rio de Janeiro, and Brasilia have a total of 2,200 students, half of which are French nationals. Considered the most culturally influential foreign country by our Brazilian diplomatic contacts, the Alliance Francaise in Brazil constitutes the oldest and most extensive in the world, with 74 establishments in 52 towns. Brazil is currently celebrating the “Year of France,” with a series of cultural and cooperative events in commerce and technology to reciprocate the “Year of Brazil” in France in 2005. Their embassy in Paris noted that Brazil is currently engaging in tri-lateral cooperation with the French on agricultural projects in a host of African countries (Cameroon, Mozambique, Uganda) and are interested in developing their foreign policy initiatives in the region, as they have a large Afro-Brazilian population. Further illustrating the strength of the existing Franco-Brazilian ties, Paris mayor Bertrand Delanoe was made an “honorary citizen” of the city of Rio de Janeiro on October 27 by his counterpart mayor, Eduardor Paes, after the two men signed an agreement focused on the revitalization and renovation of Rio’s port areas. Both countries also shared recent grief over the loss of 228 people onboard Air France Flight 447 in June, when the Airbus A330 disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean during a Rio de Janeiro-Paris flight. Over 500 relatives of the victims and 40 members of Air France held a memorial service on November 7 in Rio, with junior French minister Alain Joyandet, in charge of overseas cooperation, representing the GOF.
{¶}8. (C) Paris used the positive political climate to try to position the Rafale as the winner in the competition to equip the Brazilian Air Force with new fighter aircraft, in the hopes of edging out the American F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Swedish Grippen. Politically motivated, the Brazilian Foreign Ministry decision to publicly announce their intention to go with French company Dassault, which makes the Rafale, over the Brazilian Air Force’s preferred Super Hornet stemmed from Lula’s close relationship with Sarkozy. Although the deal known as “F-X2” or the fleet expansion is still unsettled, the French President did much to persuade his Brazilian counterpart to lean toward the French-made fighter jets in his two-day trip to Brasilia, where he dined with Lula and was the special guest at Brazil’s September 7 Independence Day celebrations, which featured French Foreign Legion troops and an over-flight of French planes. In so doing, he attempted to demonstrate that his political ties with Lula are ultimately reinforced by industrial deals. Sarkozy presented the myth that France is the perfect partner for states that do not want to rely on U.S. technology, even though the U.S. has agreed in principle to transfer relevant technology if Brazil purchases the F-18. However, if the Rafale sale goes through, Dassault may have to request export-control licenses from the U.S. for parts built with American technology. Although the F-X2 decision has yet to be confirmed by Brazil, the GOF appears confident that it has beaten out the American and Swedish competition thanks to Sarkozy’s diplomatic efforts. Moreover, Brazilian poloff Bruno de Lacerda Carrilho in Paris revealed on October 8 that Brasilia has been particularly receptive to such personal engagement at the Presidential level by France, posing the question of whether Obama would become personally involved. Marking his fifth visit to Brazil this year, Sarkozy is scheduled to travel to Manaus on November 26 for the Summit of Amazon countries and is expected to advance his broad political and commercial objectives with Brazil.
{¶}9. (C) Leveraging his personal rapport with Lula to advance the bilateral relationship, Sarkozy depicted the union as “a balanced partnership with two legs, one civilian and the other military. The military has progressed faster but the civilian will eventually win out.” The two leaders have already signed off on the $12 billion purchase of five submarines, four conventional and Latin America’s first nuclear-propelled submarine, to be built in a new shipyard at Itaguai, as well as 50 military transport helicopters that will be assembled in Minas Gerais. (Comment: The conventional submarines incorporate U.S.-origin GE Marine engines.) At the same time, Brazil announced its intention to begin negotiations to purchase the 36 Rafale fighter jets which could increase the financial transaction to $20 billion if the deal officially goes through. The French have from the start guaranteed to give the Brazilians Rafale software source codes that represent the very digital heart of the aircraft, a step we understand the others bidders were reluctant at first to take. After Lula complained to Sarkozy about the “absurd price” of the Rafales at $80 million each, MFA sources state that the French president sent him a personal letter stressing French willingness to participate in the “unrestricted transfer” of technological intelligence” that the Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim had made known was a prerequisite for major arms deals in April. Labeled the “French comparative advantage,” the technology transfer appealed to Brazil’s desire to not only purchase the Rafale but to manufacture the aircraft in-country and possibly sell them throughout Latin America by 2030, stated the Brazilian pol-mil attache Marcus Rector Toledo Silva in Paris to poloff on September 11.
{¶}10. (C) According to XXXXXXXXXXXX the fighter jet saga was spurred by the release of the Brazilian National Defense Strategy in December 2008. He noted that the Brazilian Air Force has 110 jets dating from the 1970s and 1980s that are too old and outdated for a country whose needs include patrolling 5 million square miles of territory, 10.5 million miles of national border, and vast offshore oil platforms. Brazil’s most modern aircraft are 12 French Mirage 2000s, purchased second-hand and approaching their retirement dates. By contrast, neighbors Chile and Venezuela have 29 F-16s and 24 Sukhoi 30s respectively, both representing the most advanced models available. With Hugo Chavez recently buying over $3 billion in aircraft, tanks, and assault weapons from Russia, Brazil also seeks to enhance its regional military capabilities. Thus the deal brokered by Sarkozy was key for Dassault, bilateral defense ties, and boosting civilian sector trade over the long term. In the middle of all the media uproar however, two Rafale jets fell into the Mediterranean, provoking much discussion in the French and Brazilian press about the fact that the jets had never been sold outside of France. The crash also raised questions about why the Rafale’s trade deal during the Moroccan fighter competition in 2008 fell through.

Eurofajter Tajfun, zastarela hladnoratovska zaostavstina ?

{¶}2. (SBU) Clegg,s primary message was the UK,s need to adopt a doctrine of what he called “liberal interventionism,” similar to the UN’s concept of “Responsibility to Protect.” This doctrine, explained Clegg, calls for the UK to become involved in foreign conflicts only if a) the cause is just and as a last resort, b) intervention is well intentioned, c) military action is proportional and sanctioned by legitimate authority, and d) there exists a reasonable chance of success. Clegg argued that the UK must adapt its military and strategic resources to the post-Cold War world, and mentioned the need to focus more on supporting troops in the field as opposed to spending money on “outdated” weapons systems such as the Typhoon fighter jet and Trident missile system.

Arapi AMRAAM, F-15, Tajfuni
Citat:{¶}4. (S) The GOI continued to express concern over the F-15
sale to Saudi Arabia. U.S. participants noted that the USG
is unable to provide more detailed information about the sale
until Saudi Arabia officially sends a Letter of Request
(LOR). The GOI expressed additional concerns about
stationing these new aircraft at Tabuk airfield in the
northwest corner of Saudi Arabia -- close to the Israeli
border. U.S. participants stated the USG understanding that
this should not be an issue, as the Saudis are considering
stationing new Typhoon aircraft at Tabuk. The GOI also
raised AMRAAM sales to Jordan; U.S. participants explained
that the new C-7 AMRAAM is an export version with
capabilities similar to the C-5 version -- and therefore
provides little to no increase in capabilities.

Izraelci na temu Iran i S-300
Citat:On the Russian delay in
delivery of the S-300 (SA-20) to Iran, Gilad voiced
satisfaction with the train of events, acknowledging Prime
Minister Netanyahu's "secret" visit to Moscow and President
Obama's engagement with Medvedev had both played a role.
Gilad was worried about Russian readiness to support tough
sanctions on Iran. ASD Vershbow said the Russians' signals
on sanctions were mixed, but they seemed genuinely concerned
about recent Iranian missile tests and the revelation of the
Qom facility.

To su samo isecci i delici. Svaki dan se objavljuju nove prepiske i putem torrenta se mogu skinuti. Razna vojna tehnologija, PVO sistemi i avioni se pominju na velikom broju strana. Sigurno ce vas interesovati, a mladji ce imati vise vremena da pretresu ove telegrame.

Dopuna: 02 Dec 2010 19:36

Intresantna analiza ruske politike izvoza naoruzanja, autor William J. Burns, nekadasnji sef stejt departmeta i ambasador u Moskvi.

Registruj se da bi učestvovao u diskusiji. Registrovanim korisnicima se NE prikazuju reklame unutar poruka.
  • Pridružio: 11 Feb 2009
  • Poruke: 3330
  • Gde živiš: Gola Plješevica, SFRJ 8)

Vlasnik wikileaks-a bi po meni trebao dobit neko medunarodno priznanje.Treba bit lud pa ovako osušit SAD,ruje hrpu ostalih drzava. No svaka mu cast,bar neko ima hrabrosti da iznese pravdu na svetlo. Ziveli

  • jazbar 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 28 Dec 2009
  • Poruke: 16067
  • Gde živiš: Lublana

Hvala bogu stalno sam ga molio da se nešto desi i evo...

  • Pridružio: 03 Apr 2008
  • Poruke: 5805

frenki1986 ::Vlasnik wikileaks-a bi po meni trebao dobit neko medunarodno priznanje.Treba bit lud pa ovako osušit SAD,ruje hrpu ostalih drzava. No svaka mu cast,bar neko ima hrabrosti da iznese pravdu na svetlo. Ziveli

Pa dobio je interpolovu medjunarodnu poternicu, kao najvece priznanje sto ga Interpol dodeljuje. GUZ - Glavom U Zid GUZ - Glavom U Zid

  • Pridružio: 05 Maj 2009
  • Poruke: 363
  • Gde živiš: Nemacka

Mislim da ce nama svima biti zanimljivije kad "isplove" depese iz 90-tih a posebno 1999!

  • Pridružio: 04 Jan 2009
  • Poruke: 70

evo sad citam da wikileaks vise neradi... Ameri su ga blokirali

  • Pridružio: 11 Feb 2009
  • Poruke: 3330
  • Gde živiš: Gola Plješevica, SFRJ 8)

Provider koji je imao Wikileaks na svom sistemu ga izbacio i blokirao da bi zastitio ostale od pada mreze jer je wiki. bio napadnut "nepoznatom grupom" hackera Very Happy Izgleda ce se wiki. selit u swicarsku.

  • Pridružio: 29 Maj 2009
  • Poruke: 1103
  • Gde živiš: Beograd

ne mogu da pronadjem nista o prodaji mistrala (a osecam da bode oci Mr. Green) i americkim "dobronamernim sugestijama" francuskoj u vezi prodaje rusima...

  • Pridružio: 17 Feb 2010
  • Poruke: 428

Treba imati na umu da je ovo samo deo prepiske i da svaki dan objavljuju nova dokumenta. Isto tako treba imati na umu da su ovo ipak "samo" diplomatske-ambasadorske depese. Sto znaci da ih pisu ljudi koji ne donose direktno odluke. Pored toga postoje posebne drzavne strukture i sluzbe SAD koje se bave "prljavim" poslovima i obavestajnom aktivnoscu. A one nisu pokrivene ovim depesama.

Sto se tice nosaca klase Mistral, imas dve depese iz ove godine na tu temu.

Mistral i problematicni tender za novi KC za USAF...

{¶}1. (S/NF) SUMMARY: Secretary of Defense Robert Gates (SecDef) was
hosted by French Minister of Defense Herve Morin for a working lunch
during an official bilateral visit to Paris on February 8, 2010.............


{¶}18. (S/NF) SecDef expressed U.S. concerns about the Mistral sale to
Russia. He told Morin that because of Sarkozy's involvement in
brokering a ceasefire in Georgia, which Russia was not fully honoring,
the sale would send the wrong message to Russia and to our Allies in
Central and East Europe.

{¶}19. (S/NF) Morin told SecDef pointedly that he had pushed hard for the
sale. He conceded that it was indeed a warship for power projection.
But Morin asked rhetorically how we can tell Russia we desire
partnership but then not trust them. Morin told SecDef that he
understood the U.S. position on considering Central and East European
Allies' concerns about the perceived threat from Russia. Morin argued,
however, that this single ship would not make any difference with
respect to Russian capabilities, as Russia's naval production ability
was severely degraded.

{¶}20. (S/NF) SecDef replied that U.S. concerns were not about military
capacity but about messaging. Some allies, because of their past
experiences, are still very concerned with Russia and are not sure how
much to trust the West. SecDef observed that Russian democracy has
disappeared and the government was an oligarchy run by the security
services. President Medvedev has a more pragmatic vision for Russia
than PM Putin, but there has been little real change.

KC-X Tanker RFP

{¶}21. (S/NF) Morin told SecDef he had one final, but major, topic to
raise, the U.S. contract tender for a new tanker plane. He asked that
the RFP be issued so that competition was equal for both companies and
there was no bias. Morin stressed that it was important for our market
economy to be a two-way street. He told SecDef that if the terms of
competition are unequal, EADS would not submit a bid.

{¶}22. (S/NF) SecDef stated his belief that the RFP would be fair. He

PARIS 00000170 004 OF 004

told Morin that the Air Force had established the requirements. He
noted that since the previous competition, he had fired both the
civilian and military leaders of the Air Force and that there was a new
person in charge of the Pentagon's acquisition policy. SecDef said
that it would be disappointing if EADS did not submit a proposal.

{¶}23. (U) SecDef has cleared this cable. Drafted by OSD Staff.

Citat:Summary. On January 20, 2010, Under Secretary Bill
Burns and Defense Under Secretary for Policy Michele Flournoy
hosted the third U.S.-France Strategic Dialogue with
counterparts Jacques Audibert and Michel Miraillet. ...............

{¶}12. (S/NF) Audibert, noting he was raising his "if-raised"
point, brought up the issue of France's potential sale of a
helicopter carrier Mistral-class ship to Russia. He asserted
that the French had merely agreed to negotiate with Russia on
the potential sale, but then argued that sale would be only
for the ship without armament systems. Audibert also said
that while France understood U.S. concerns over the potential
for Russia to use the ship for projection of power, it was
important to note that any decision on the issue would, in the
end, be political in nature. Miraillet stated that this sale
would be a gesture of good will to Russia as France assessed
the Russian Navy was in dire condition. In any case,
concluded Miraillet, if France did not make the sale, the
Netherlands and Spain would likely sell similar technology.

{¶}13. (S/NF) On Mistral, USD(P) observed the optics and policy
behind the sale were perplexing as it would "fly in the face"

STATE 00013750 004 OF 004

of President Sarkozy's personal engagement on resolving the
Georgia crisis in 2008. She asserted that this sale would
send a confusing political signal to Russia as well as to
other Europeans. U/S Burns concurred with USD(P), noting the
sale would feed Georgia's fears and could lead to an arms
race, increasing the chance of miscalculation by one or both
sides. USD(P) concluded that while we understood that France
wanted to actively engage Russia, the U.S. would prefer that
France find a different confidence-building measure than a
Mistral sale.

Dopuna: 05 Dec 2010 17:09

Sve depese koje je danas objavio Wiki Leaks su u vezi brazilskog tendera za novog lovca.

Nisam procitao sve, ali par zanimljivosti...

Francuzi prodaju netacnu pricu da je Rafal 100% francuski prozivod. Americka tehnologija i US dozvole su neophodne za sledece delove Rafala: sitem za gadjanje ciljeva na zemlji, deo komponenata radara i sigurnosni sistemi.
Iz ovog telegrama se moze saznati da je Rafal otpao sa Indijskog tendera za novog lovca.
Over the last few months, the French sales effort has been
based on a misleading, if not fraudulent, claim that their
plane involves only French content (rendering it free of
meddlesome U.S. export controls). This is not the case. A
DTSA analysis found a high level of U.S. content, including
targeting systems, radar components and safety systems that
will require U.S. licenses. Next steps:

-- Although it does not appear that the tech data provided
with the French bid violated ITAR regs, PM/DDTC and DTSA
should continue to monitor French marketing to ensure
Dassault does not skirt ITAR restrictions.
-- Investigate India,s decision to drop the Rafale from its
fighter competition to see if there is a reason that would
make the aircraft less attractive to Brazil.
-- Ensure the Brazilians are aware that we expect to be
issuing retransfer licenses for U.S.-origin components on the
French plane and have already approved transfer of some
technical data.

Komadant brazilskog vazuhoplovstva daje prednost F-18 Super Hornetu u odnosu na Rafal i to formulacijom "nesumnjivo je tehnicki superioran":
At a July 30 dinner for visiting SouthCom Commander General Doug Fraser, Brazil,s Air Force (BRAF) commander, Brigadier Juniti Saito (protect), pulled Ambassador Sobel and Political Counselor aside to discuss the FX-2 Fighter purchase. He said that there was no question from a technical point of view that the F18 was the superior aircraft. &We have been flying U.S. equipment for decades,8 he said, ∧ we know that it is dependable and that maintenance is simple and cost-effective through FMS.8 That has to be factored into the cost of the new fighter, he said, as the BRAF will likely be using the plane for thirty or forty years. It is the best decision, he said, and the French can,t complain as they just signed a USD 14 billion deal with Brazil (for submarines and helicopters).

  • Pridružio: 18 Maj 2009
  • Poruke: 58
  • Gde živiš: Dubrovnik

Pa da pocnemo od npr. Gripena i Svedjana:

{¶}4. (C) Regarding the possibility of Sweden sending JAS Gripen fighters to Afghanistan, Ahlin said the Social Democrats had told the Moderate-led Alliance government they would not agree to this mission. Afghanis would not be able to distinguish Swedish planes from those of countries engaged in combat operations in Iraq, per Ahlin. Note: The Swedish military continues to argue for a Gripen mission to Afghanistan, Kosovo and the Balkans ----------------------

Hoće Šveđani da testiraju Gripen izvan Švedske izgleda.

Ko je trenutno na forumu

Ukupno su 479 korisnika na forumu :: 6 registrovanih, 1 sakriven i 472 gosta   ::   [ Administrator ] [ Supermoderator ] [ Moderator ] :: Detaljnije

Najviše korisnika na forumu ikad bilo je 3195 - dana 09 Nov 2023 14:47

Korisnici koji su trenutno na forumu:
Korisnici trenutno na forumu: Karla, Konda, Krusarac, pacika, voja64, zlaya011