Nabavka borbenih bespilotnih letelica za VS

3

Nabavka borbenih bespilotnih letelica za VS

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@boyce
Ne govorim u smislu klasicnog citatelja, vec gledam sto "cistiju" informaciju tojest bez novinarskog "ulepsavanja". Kod domacih informacija na Tanjugu obicno moze da se vidi video zapis pa mi je to najverniji izvor.
Za konkretnu pricu, oni imaju ljude u Pekingu i siguran sam da su dobili juce sta da napisu a sada imamo i video Bace, tako da su verodostojniji od ostalih izvora.

@aramis
CH-3 ima dva problema, naoruzana je i nemamo dokaze da smo isli da je gledamo (konkurencija AVIC-u). Po osnovu onoga sto je Baca pricao, imam neki osecaj da nameravaju da iskoriste optoelektoniku i sistem upravljanja sa te naoruzane BPL i nakaleme na Pegaza (bez naoruzanja i satelitske kontrole) i time dobiju izvidjaca sa dometom 250 km i trajanjem leta od 12H (uporedivo sa CH-2).

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boyce ::

Ovaj Tanjug više nije onaj stari Tanjug, kao agencija je ugašen, potpuštani su stari noovinari, saradnici, a ovi su neki divljaci sa nedefinisanim statusom, uglavnom plasiraju vesti po ,,upustvu''...


Svi listovi koji su ikada postojali su plasirali vesti "po (nečijem) uputstvu". Možda su promenili gazdu pa ti se novi ne sviđa.

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Mnogo je nijansi sive između crne i bele.

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darkangel ::

@aramis
CH-3 ima dva problema, naoruzana je i nemamo dokaze da smo isli da je gledamo (konkurencija AVIC-u). Po osnovu onoga sto je Baca pricao, imam neki osecaj da nameravaju da iskoriste optoelektoniku i sistem upravljanja sa te naoruzane BPL i nakaleme na Pegaza (bez naoruzanja i satelitske kontrole) i time dobiju izvidjaca sa dometom 250 km i trajanjem leta od 12H (uporedivo sa CH-2).

to se i meni cini kolega na osnovu ove izjave,borbene + tehnologija koja nam nedostaje za zavrsetak Pegaza kao izvidjacke

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@darkangel Kada kazu dva tipa mozda je rec o jednom, samo u dve verzije naoruzanu i bez naoruzanja. Ono sto je zanimljivo po ovome mi cemo da koristimo kineske laserske obelezivace za svoju artiljeriju, sto znaci da ili cemo od njih da nabavljamo laserski vodjene artiljerijske projketili ili sami da pravimo po njihovom obelezivacu.
Da ima zelje i pameti posto vec nabavljamo i Mi-35 da njih uvezemo sa ovim bespilotnim ko sto su Ameri uradili (military manned-unmanned teaming (MUM-T)) sa njihovim apacima i RQ-7 Shadow .

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Hetzer ::@darkangel Kada kazu dva tipa mozda je rec o jednom, samo u dve verzije naoruzanu i bez naoruzanja. Ono sto je zanimljivo po ovome mi cemo da koristimo kineske laserske obelezivace za svoju artiljeriju, sto znaci da ili cemo od njih da nabavljamo laserski vodjene artiljerijske projketili ili sami da pravimo po njihovom obelezivacu.
Da ima zelje i pameti posto vec nabavljamo i Mi-35 da njih uvezemo sa ovim bespilotnim ko sto su Ameri uradili (military manned-unmanned teaming (MUM-T)) sa njihovim apacima i RQ-7 Shadow .

Postoji i ta opcija, ali je problem u tome sto samo CH-4 nudi dve varijante (A- izvidjac; B- borbena) a koliko je meni poznato mi smo bili u kontaktu sa AVIC-om ali ne i sa CASC-om.

Jos jedna stvar je tu zanimljiva, posto je kod ovih BPL primarno oruzje laserski vodjeno nama je bitna nosivost jer imamo M16D/K (laserski vodjena 128 mm Munja) koja je tezine 67 kg + njen lanser (tu negde 10-20 kg), recimo sve zajedno 80 kg. Ja ocekujem da ovo bude primarno naoruzanje, mada ne bi bilo lose kupiti FT i LS seriju bombi od 25/50 kg.

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na 06:45
Citat:750kg tezina letelica
Nista od Wing Loong-ova posto su dosta tezi…


Brzinski search mi izbacio ovo:
Citat:AD200W Blue Eagle

Max takeoff weight: 750 kg
Max payload: 300 kg
Speed: 135 km/hr
Endurance: 12 hr
Range: 2000 km
Unit price 500000
Price for weaponry carried: 350000

Lista kineskih UAV je beskonacna. Ovo sigurno nije jedina od 750kg...

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Pomenuo je on tu mnogo važniji podatak kada priča o kineskim bespilotnim:
Citat:''...i tu uzmete dve baterije sa po tri takve letelice, to je prvo naše ulaganje, to je negde oko 30 miliona evra dakle...''
Kažem ''važniji'' jer može on da zaboravi/pomeša/prečuje kilograme, ali pare teeeeeeško. Very Happy
Šta prave kinezi od bespilotnih, a da košta 5, ili malo manje od 5 miliona evra po komadu (''manje'' jer je uključeno možda i naoružanje za njih, obuka, prateća oprema, delovi, mora biti i zemaljska stanica u kojoj sede njihovi ''piloti''...ko zna šta sve).

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Obojica ste u pravu, uzmimo da govori tacne podatke (jbg, druge nemamo pa mu moramo verovati). Sta znamo od podataka:
"bespilotne letelice sa naoruzanjem" - ovo je poprilicno jasno i nema dilema
"750 kg je tezina tih letelica" - na koju tezinu misli? tezina prazne letelice, maksimalna poletna tezina ili mozda cak i na tezinu tereta koju nosi (opreme i naoruzanja)?
"izvidjaju sa 5 km visine" - ovaj podatak suzava donekle potragu
"2 baterije sa po tri letelice, to je prvo nase ulaganje, to je negde oko 30 miliona evra" - dakle prosecno 5 miliona evra po letelici. Ovaj srednji deo recenice i kasniji nastavak intervjua koji nisam citirao, govori da se ove pare odnose samo na ovu nabavku a da ce transfer tehnologije biti poseban ugovor. Sta obuhvata ovih 5 miliona evra, koliko naoruzanja kupujemo?
Ovo je poprilicna cena jer se ranije pricalo da je cena jednog WL I milion dolara (verovatno klot).

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Jedna zanimljiva prica (zanemariti ovog Ukrajinca sa "nacionalizmom") koja se moze porediti sa nasom nabavkom. Inace ovaj Barjaktar je uporediv sa CH-3 dronom a cena je dva puta veca od nase nabavke za isti broj sistema (2x3) i 200 raketa. Pa da vidimo ko ce bolje proci na kraju, mi ili Ukrajinci.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3419802.html

Citat:Ukraine has acquired six Turkish Bayraktar TB2 UAV drums and weapons

As the well-known Ukrainian journalist Yury Butusov reported on his page on www.facebook.com , the Ukrainian side nevertheless entered into a contract worth $ 69 million for the purchase of two sets of reconnaissance-strike unmanned aerial vehicles Bayraktar TB2 produced by Turkish private company Baykar Makina. The delivery will include six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, two ground control stations and 200 guided missiles (apparently, Roketsan MAM-L) . Also in the price includes a set of spare parts, service support and training of personnel.

Recall that earlier Ukrainian sources reported that the agreement on the purchase of Turkish unmanned aerial vehicles Bayraktar TB2 was signed during the visit of the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko to Turkey on November 3-4, 2018 (during this visit Poroshenko visited the company Baykar Makina in Istanbul) and that negotiations on the purchase of these UAVs were conducted by Ukraine for about two years. However, on November 13, the information on the conclusion of the contract for the purchase of a UAV Bayraktar TB2 was denied by the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Stepan Poltorak.

Yu. Butusov himself on his page on www.facebook.com writes on November 19 the following:

Turkish "Bayraktara" in the war with Russia - details of the deal for Ukraine

It is worth writing again about one of the most resonant military-political and diplomatic topics: Ukraine concluded an agreement on the purchase in Turkey of one set of unmanned aerial vehicles. According to sources, Censor. No, the contract includes 6 combat drones, 2 control stations and 200 guided missiles. Also in the transaction a set of spare parts, service support, staff training. The contract value is 69 million dollars.

Many Ukrainian manufacturers of UAVs criticize this deal.

The main subject of criticism is the high cost, which exceeds many times the sums allocated for the purchases of APU drones from Ukrainian manufacturers. Manufacturers say that if a similar amount was allocated for design development, Ukraine would be able to create its own production of drone drone.

Secondly, the inability to use Bayraktarov in the war in the Donbass in the face of opposition from the Russian air defense system is criticized.

Understanding the criticism, nevertheless, I consider the purchase of Bayrakarov for Ukraine at this stage is very profitable and necessary to enhance the technological and combat capabilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Yes, the cost of "Bayraktarov" is high. Here are just looking to compare? Weapons of a similar class produce only six countries of the world. The USA, China and Israel - there are only three major manufacturers of heavy assault drones with guided weapons. NATO countries buy combat UAVs in the United States. Also, the release of guided weapons drones was recently mastered by Turkey, Iran and Pakistan. Russia, despite the fact that the development of impact free drivers has been funded since 2005, cannot master the production of shock drone still.

In order to master the production of ethereal long-range reconnaissance aircraft, Russia purchased in Israel a license to manufacture old Israeli Sercher UAVs manufactured under the Forpost brand. And until now, this old drone is the main type of long-range reconnaissance scouts of the RF Armed Forces, they are actively used in the Donbas, and several such machines were shot down by our air defense. But Russia cannot master the shock drones up to now. Over the past 13 years in the Russian Federation have received large sums of state funding of 5 programs for creating heavy percussion UAVs with guided weapons - but none of these projects have been adopted. Because the development of technologies for the use of guided missiles with a drone - this is not a simple matter. Russia once again declares the adoption of UAVs with guided weapons like "Corsair" in the 2018th year and the Altair type in the 2020th. But so far it is only about the release of prototypes, and it’s not known whether these drones will go into series. Personnel use of these UAV-controlled weapons of the Russian Federation is not showing. It is not by chance that Russia is considering the purchase of a UAV impact drone made by the United Arab Emirates, and one such United 40 vehicle was tested in the Russian Federation.

The purchase of "Bayraktarov" allows you to get a serious technological advantage. We will be able to master the operation of a modern combat UAV and its ammunition, to study the principles of operation. In order to develop its Bayraktari, Turkey first purchased 4 American MQ-9 Riper impact drons. And already at their base the Turks created their own fighting vehicles.

Ukrainian designers say that having received investments similar to the cost of purchasing Bayraktarov, we will be able to develop our complexes in a few years.

In fact, there are no guarantees that we will be able to create a shock UAV even in 3-4 years. Impact drone is much more complicated - it requires a powerful noise-resistant communication system, an aiming and navigation system for the use of guided missiles. These technologies are each in itself a comprehensive program that requires long-term development or procurement abroad. It will be easier to solve these problems if there are “Bayraktarov” in service, who will be performing tasks right now.

Ukrainian designers will be able to access these UAVs, to study the features of operation, the practice of combat use. All this is very important information and experience required by our designers.

I think a big problem that the amount of investment in the construction of UAVs in Ukraine is extremely small. And harsh criticism of the state in this matter is necessary. Since, apart from large Turkish drones, Ukraine, with public investment, could now create new types of tactical drone drones, which will be in great demand around the world in the near future. But for now, our military cannot formulate strategies and technical tasks for developing UAVs and other modern weapons.

But the need to finance Ukrainian construction programs cannot at all undo the importance of purchasing ready-made combat vehicles. Needless machines are needed right now! And not after many years. And the availability of combat-ready modern machines will accelerate our own development.

"Bayraktar" - this is not an absolute weapon, drones require competent training, intelligence and tactics of use, otherwise there will be no results. There are opportunities for the combat use of drone drone in the Donbas and the Crimea. Russian air defense is by no means impenetrable, and contains quite a few free zones, where our drones successfully penetrate. To build a layered air defense system in the Donbas and in the Crimea, and even along its borders, Russia is not able to. Yes, the task of our radio intelligence to identify the parameters and boundaries of the air defense radars of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation - and our intelligence solves these problems, including using the technology of our allies from NATO countries. Apply drone UAVs in the Donbass is quite real.

In addition, it should be noted that the presence in the armament of shock drones will force the Russian Federation to spend large resources to protect against a possible threat.

It is equally important to consider military-technical cooperation in relations with the NATO country Turkey. Ukraine strengthens special relations with Turkey in the military sphere.

After another attack by Kurdish rebels with Russian weapons on Turkish troops, the Turkish leadership decided to supply the most modern types of their weapons to Ukraine. The war that Russia unleashed near the Turkish border in Syria gave us the opportunity to strike at the Russians with Turkish weapons. Hitting Bayraktarov on Russian soldiers in the Donbas will cause heavy damage to Russian-Turkish relations, and seriously discredit Putin, who is trying to show warming in Russian-Turkish relations.

Yes, there are much more technological samples of drones from the USA and Israel - only we are not going to sell them.

Israeli businessmen strongly criticized the leadership of Ukraine, which announced the purchase of Turkish radio stations Aselsan. However, Turkey is ready to go much further in relations with Ukraine than Israel. The Turks are ready to sell the most modern models of lethal weapons, while Israel sells only non-lethal weapons to Ukraine - radio stations and electronic warfare stations. The delivery of "Bayraktarov" shows - if you want to cooperate with Ukraine, give us what you need, remove restrictions. We have money if you are ready to sell the most modern things you can use to beat the Russian aggressors. Cooperation with the Turks is important for us, because after this transaction, we could negotiate with them about buying not whole unmanned systems,

This year, Ukraine received from the United States super-modern guided missiles "Javelin". This is essentially a gift for the program of American military assistance. But he has one drawback - Ukraine has pledged to use the Javelins only in the event of a sharp exacerbation of the situation at the front. "Javelins" are stored in the rear.

In the case of Bayraktar, for the first time Ukraine receives high-tech guided weapons, which can be used against Russia immediately, without restrictions. Such a huge amount, such harsh criticism, such huge expectations - all this makes the Ukrainian leadership show the results of the use of "Bayraktarov" for the Russian invaders in the Donbas. Good incentive. This transaction is a breakthrough in the supply of high-tech weapons to Ukraine. Only the video of the destroyed Russian soldiers in the Donbass will make it possible to call the project of purchasing “Bayraktarov” successful.

If the combat use of "Bayraktarov" does not happen, then the deal on the purchase of attack drones from the subject of pride will become a symbol of costly failure. To justify the purchase of weapons, which will spend such a huge amount for our defense industry, can only work on the front. The purchase of "Bayraktra" is a serious obligation to organize the correct combat use and the destruction of the Russian invaders.

Bmpd recallthat the Bayraktar TB2 UAV was developed by the Turkish private company Baykar Makina in partnership with the Turkish private Kale Group and became in fact the first Turkish capable UAV reconnaissance and impact aircraft due to the delayed state UAI TAI Anka program. The Bayraktar UAV was created in 2007, the first prototype of the Bayraktar Block A made its first flight in June 2009. Since 2014, at least 34 serial UAVs of the Bayraktar TB2 (Block B version) have been supplied to the Turkish army and 18 to the gendarmerie and the national police. Since 2016, Bayraktar TB2 UAVs have been used in combat using weapons against the forces of the Kurdistan Workers Party, as well as over Syria.

The Bayraktar TB2 UAV has a maximum take-off weight of 650 kg, a length of 6.5 m and a wing span of 12 m. Rotax 912 piston engine with a power of 100 hp. The cruising speed of the UAV is about 130 km / h, the ceiling is up to 8100 m. The flight duration is up to 24 hours. The device is controlled by radio, so it has a range of only about 150 km. The mass of the combat load is up to 75 kg (in fact, for long-term locking it is no more than 50-55 kg) and includes the Roketsan L-UMTAS ATGM (weight 37.5 kg, apparently, in reality, these missiles are practically not used from these UAVs because of their mass) or lightweight MAM-L ammunition (SMM, weighing 22 kg) with a semi-active laser guidance system, based on them , the load can be placed on four pylons. Also for use with the Roketsan UAVA new lightweight MAM-C ammunition with a mass of only 8.5 kg was developed , which is in fact a 70-mm corrected Cirit missile with a semi-active laser guidance system, but without an engine.

If the message of Y. Butusov is true, then Ukraine will become the second foreign customer of the UAV Bayraktar TB2 - in March 2018, six of these UAVs were ordered by the Qatar Intelligence Center.

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