Citat:In November 2018, Viktor Murakhovsky, a writer for the Russian publication Arsenal of the Fatherland, posted a comment regarding the performance of Russia’s Pantsir S-1 air-defense system.
“In Syria, it turned out that the Pantsir was practically incapable of detecting low-speed and small-sized targets, which include military UAVs. At the same time, the complex regularly recorded false targets—large birds flying around the base—rather confusing the operators.”
Shortly afterward, Murakhovsky’s post disappeared. Some observers speculated there may have been pressure to silence negative press for a system Russia has already exported to Algeria, Iraq, Oman, Syria and the UAE. Others dismissed Murakhovsky’s claim for relying on an anonymous source
The Pantsir-S1 is a truck-mounted short-range air defense system, or SHORADS, combining both surface-to-air missiles and rapid-firing 30-millimeter anti-aircraft cannons. SHORADS protect front-line troops and key military bases from low-flying jets, helicopters and incoming missiles.
As inexpensive drones have entered widespread use with both military and insurgent actors across the globe, SHORADS have grown in importance.
But the anonymous source Murakhovsky cited claimed the Pantsir performed poorly against drones compared to the older and more expensive Tor-M2U missile system.
“In a real combat situation, the Pantsir does not justify the hopes placed on it,” the source explained. “On July 1, [2018], the first drone attack occurred, and three drones from the group were able to fly up to the Russian base and drop nine makeshift explosive devices. Immediately after the start of the attack, the Tor-M2U crew detected the targets and destroyed four drones with five ground-guided missiles at altitudes between 2.5 and three kilometers. Another three drones were shot down by the Pantsir-S1, but it used 13 missiles to do so.”
“During the second half of July 2018, the Tors in Syria destroyed seven UAVs with nine missiles,” the source continued. “In August 2018, the Tors detected and shot down another eight UAVs, expending a total of nine rockets. In the period from April to October 2018, the Tor-M2U complexes in Syria shot down 80 air targets, with an efficiency of 80 percent.”
“Meanwhile, the efficiency of the Pantsir-S1 during the same period was only 19 percent.”
It’s unclear whether the source’s claims are true.
“Murakhovsky was responding to an article that was likely planted by manufacturers of Tor,” Michael Kofman, a Russian military expert at the Center of Naval Analysis, told War Is Boring in an email.
“Russian defense industry and military journals have no problem criticizing their own performance, but many media articles are plants by rival companies criticizing each other’s products. The description of air defense performance in Syria can be summarized as ‘Rostec pushed Pantsir-S1 into mass procurement, but it fails at this particular mission, and actually Tor is much better but doesn’t have the political influence of Rostec’ and so on.”
Despite similar performance parameters, the Tor and Pantsir usually serve in different roles. The Tor, built by the state-owned firm Almaz-Antey, primarily functions as a forward air-defense asset for Russian ground forces. For this reason, the Tor-M2U—a recent modernization of a system that first deployed in the 1980s—is based on a 37-ton armored, tracked chassis and can acquire targets while on the move … and simultaneously engage up to four aircraft after stopping for three to five seconds to engage its vertical cold-launch system.
The $25-million SHORADS system carries up to 16 9M331 missiles with a range of 12 kilometers and a speed of Mach 2.5
Meanwhile, the Pantsir-S1 is based on an unarmored eight-by-eight truck chassis. It primarily operates with the Russian air force in static missions defending bases and weapons installations. This includes protecting S-400 long-range surface-to-air missile batteries from incoming radar-homing missiles such as the United States’ AGM-88 HARM.
The Pantsir boasts a passive electro-optical guidance channel in addition to radar-guidance. Its 12 57E6 missiles have a slightly longer engagement range of 20 kilometers. At $15 million per unit, it’s cheaper than the Tor is.
The Pantsir already had a mixed combat record in Syria. The Syrian military began receiving the first of 40 Pantsirs in 2007, but like the rest of Syrian air defenses, the Pantsirs have had little success in shooting down Israeli warplanes during their frequent raids.
In May 14 2018, a Pantsir reportedly was destroyed by an Israeli Spike missile. Russian media murkily claimed the unfortunate Pantsir was inactive, or had somehow expended all of its missiles.
A Syrian Pantsir apparently shot down a Turkish RF-4 Phantom in 2012.
Russia has deployed its own Pantsirs to protect its aircraft and personnel at Hmeimim air base in Syria, and the Pantsir’s manufacturer has claimed the systems shot down incoming rocket artillery as well as numerous drones operated by the United States, Turkey, and Syrian rebels.
On Jan. 6, 2018 the Pantsirs at Hmeimim engaged a swarm of 13 kamikaze drones deployed by Syrian rebels, shooting down seven. Electronic warfare assets reportedly disabled another six.
In April 2018 Russia reinforced the Pantsirs at Hmeimim with Tor-M2U systems. Murakhovksy’s anonymous source suggests an explanation. Though to be fair, this was not the Tor’s first-ever deployment in Syria.
But are the negative reports reliable? Kofman cautions “I would say industry competition plays a role in this discussion and so while facts may support the overall conclusion, context matters,” he said. “The Pantsir didn’t perform miserably, it simply doesn’t have a radar suitable for tracking small slow-flying targets. It was not built with that mission in mind. What’s the evidence of Tor performing better? Well, the one article that seemed to reflect very positively on Tor and very negatively on Pantsir.”
Nego nisam siguran koliko ovo uopste ima veze jer to su prakticno igracke, dronovi iz prodavnice, to je toliko sitno...u ratu to nece sresti nigde, ovo u Siriji je jedinstvena situacija, gradjanski rat gde vam neko salje igracke iz susedne ulice na aerodrom.
Za tako nesto su najbolji topovi, precizni, sa air burst municijom. To se moglo videti na ovoj nemackoj prezentaciji. To nisu mete za rakete.
^ Pa i kažem da su to prilično nekomparativni sistemi. Pancir je napravljen da bi se zadovoljila niša cenovno dostupne PVO, koji odrađuje vazdušni prostor na visinama kojima lovci mogu da deluju po površini i za skidanje krstarečih raketnih projektila. On ima ograničene sposobnosti što je normalno pa netreba da ga se glorifikuje van objektivnosti.
100% pokrivenost mora da ima sisteme:
- VSHORAD (posebno važno za skidanje manjih balističkih projektila i UAV)
- SHORAD
- MEADS
- Long Range (posebno to važi za države veće površine)
Ovo je Oluj napisao kada je taj "članak" postavljen u temi "PARS Pantsir S1 (SA-22 Greyhound)"
Oluj2.1 ::Rat Iževska i Tule je samo privremeno utihnuo pa sada opet bukti punom snagom.
Iako na izgled u preklapanju oni su suštinski dve različite borbene niše; jedan je bolji po nečemu drugi po ostalim osobinama; loše osobine jednog preklapa drugi, najboji su zajedno kada su stacionarani.
druga poruka
To ti je malo izgubljeno u prevodu a malo u pameti, sva ta budalaština oko ptica itd.
Ravni radar na Panciru je lošiji od novog dvostranog, to je cela poenta.
+ OstatakOluj2.1 ::Odavno smo zaključili da efikasnost po prečniku veće rakete Tora nije nešto što Pancir može da dostigne.
No, Pancir ima veći plafon i veću daljinu, namenjen je da štiti S-400 u maršu i kao linija poslednje odbrane protiv krilatih raketa i krstarećih projektila, izneneadne avijacije i vrlo važno helikoptera.
I tako je Pancir bio i ostao na položajima u Siriji a sa pojavom ovih hommejd dronova je ponekad imao problema, ne toliko zbog radara samog (stari radar već i ima mislim nanoviji), već pošto Tula nema podršku Almaz-Anteja a oni drže i Penzu za takve ciljeve se upravo malo dorađuje softver KIS-a koji je kod njega i ASURI a u konkretnom slučaju bez dobre spoljne informacije do skoro.
Kako god Tor je poslat, e ovo će biti zanimljivo ovima koji su se oko toga svađali, pre svega zbog prohodnosti. Tor je poslat na spoljni perimetar jer je na tim pobrđima on mogao lako da izađena njih i da manevrše, kamion jednostavno nije mogao, makar bio Kamaz.
U poslednjem masovnom napadu Tor ih je pomlatio na spoljnem perimetru, svaka čast novom njihovom radaru koji i nije toliko moderan na prvi pogled (doduše u svetlu dejstava avijacije i ometanja pre svega). Ima tu i jedna lekcija za sve, mogućnost korišćenja sirove radarske informacije je u ovakvim situacijama vrlo korisna koliko god bežali modernizmima od nje. Nišanac im radi kao sat istina protiv ovako niskotehloškog neprijatelja, poboljšali su optronički kanal, još je slabiji od Pancirovog i takav će i ostati ali jak inženjering konzorcijuma se oseća, radi i on kao sat.
I ono što je najvažnije sa njima je izašla i radio i radiotehičeska razvetka i zasekla im pozicije uzletanja na koje je posle toga dejstvovano svim što se moglo a formirane su dežurne grupe za to. Moralo se to na kraju jer ne može se dozvoliti da se stalno braniš na unutrašnjem perimetru i da sve što leti pa i pada stalno pada i po civilima.
Visok plafon, veliku daljinu i sposobnost dejstva pod ekstremnim smetnjama Tor ne može dostići onakvu kakava je kod Pancira, ekstremalnu efikasnost uništenja cilja na manjim daljinama i visinama i eto sada se vidi veliku prohodnost opet ne može da dostigne Pancir.
Uvaljivanje ovako bombastičnih vesti je posledica toga što se ponovo rasplamsala bitka za tržište, Ose se ovako ili onako moraju makar u sledećih celih 10 godina ali zameniti, a tu je Tula videla neku svoju šansu života.
Ne biva, Torovi u toj brigadno-divizijskoj niši ispred sebe imaju Tunguske i nešto još, a iza sebe Buka, ne uklapa se tu Pancir. Tula bi trebala da poradi polako na jednoj dosta usvršenoj Tunguski sa korišćenjem elemenata koji su sada na Panciru ili bolje rečeno njihovoj prilagodbi pa i novim sklopovima za to ali u niši Tunguske ne nekoj univerzalnoj.
KIS za kombinaciju Pancir + Tor u direktnoj sprezi kakvu oni sada nemaju a probali su je vidimo sa slabijom efikasnošću (neko sada već dan i noć piči linije koda sigurno ...) je verovatno moguće dobiti sada sa novim dodatnim softverom za par meseci, pri tome mora biti usaglašen i sistem veza i data linije ali to nije problem.
Problem je jedino da li se želi zadržati razlika po tom pitanju koja je sada ili se želi unifikovati.
U prvom slučaju biće više vozila na KP, dva umesto jedno, pa to ima smisla samo za dve takve četvorne baterije.
Postoji i treća mogućnost (provereno) odraditi sve na osnovu takvog novog zahteva sa front end sistemima koji se tek uvode kod Rusa, zapravo u toj fazi je Barnaul linija.
Ne pričajte gluposti. Pantsir je u ovom času najbolji SHORAD. Koji drugi SHORAD je u realnom ratu oborio toliko dronova velikih i malih, poput Pantsira? Koji drugi SHORAD je odbio toliko masovnih udara različitih oružja poput Pantsira? Koji SHORAD je oborio toliko krstarečih raketa uključujuči stealth poput JASSM i Scalp/Storm Shadow i Delilah? Koji SHORAD je obarao različite bombe uključujuči i GBU-39 SDB? Tor-M2, koji je takođe jedan najboljih SHORAD, je u Hmejmimu oborio nekoliko dronova i to je to. Rusijam kupuje Pantsir u velikom broju da radi zajedno sa S-400. Da je tako loš, ne bi jih Rusi kupovali. Pantsir je očigledno preskup za Indiju i on je na kotačima. Možda je Indija željela Tunguski, a ovde zavisi u kojoj modifikaciji so Rusi bili spremni da prodaju. Očigledno ne u zadnjoj verziji sa novim osmatračkim radarom, data linkom, GLONASS navigacijom i termovizijom. Indija kupuje S-400, Igla-S, Barak, Spyder i tako nema dovoljno para za Pantsir.
^ Kako da ne, C-RAM kao deo VSHORAD uništava minobacaćke projektile i rakete VBR.
Npr. Mantis i Centurion/Phalanx, oba sistema su ili na vozilima, tlu, odnosno prikolici ili na brodovima kao Millennium i Phalanx CIWS Mk2.
Oni više spadaju u kategoriju point defence, a to je samo uslovno u VSHORAD. I Iron Dome trpaju u tu kategoriju sa dometom od 70km.
Jedno je podela po dometu, a drugo po nameni.
South Korea offers to meet US short-range air defense requirements
https://defence-blog.com/army/south-korea-offers-t.....ments.html Citat:The Biho 2 will be fitted with multiple weapon systems of universal missile and gun platform, included one 30 or 40mm cannon able to fire airburst ammunition, a new type of tactical anti-personnel explosive ammunition that detonates in midair, causing air burst effect fragment damage to an enemy.
Južnokorejci ponudili Amerima.
Dopuna: 08 Jan 2019 18:04
South Korean sale of K-30 Biho anti-aircraft systems to India threatened
https://www.armyrecognition.com/january_2019_globa.....tened.html Citat:However, this contract appears to be threatened by a dissatisfied competitor who argues that the Indian military had not properly tested the weapon. The competition would then have been biased. Hence the request to re-start the bidding process, a move that is supported by some pro-Russian forces within the Indian government.
Faced with the prospect of its export plans to India falling apart, the Korean Defense Ministry and defense contractors have sent their own letters to the Indian Defense Ministry requesting that it streamline the contract negotiation process. The Korean government is also considering dispatching one of its officials to New Delhi to apply some pressure, The Korean JoongAng Daily reports.
Rusi su nervozni Južnokoreanci su slali pismo i spremaju delegaciju za posetu New Delhija.
