Suhoj SU-30

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Suhoj SU-30

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MK 06 drugi prototip






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[quote="kripo"]
I da, prodajuci pojeftino svoju vrhunsku tehniku stvaras sebi i vojne saveznike ili ti prijatelje u svijetu... jer onaj ko posjeduje 50 ruskih aviona ikad nece protivrjeciti Rusiji nego naprotiv. Znaci kooperacija se siri i na druge sektore.

Donekle je tacno ovo sto si rekao,ali prodajuci jeftino tehniku u ovom slucaju SU-30, moze da ima i kontraefekat, kopiranja od strane kupca(naravno mislim na Kinu), ne treba zaboraviti da je Kina sledeca super sila ako nastavi ovim tokom, pa je ja nebi tek tako naoruzavao "jeftinom" tehnikom.
Krem drustva u Rusiji je ocigledno zadovoljan cenama po kojima se njihovi avioni prodaju, GUZ - Glavom U Zid ,plus cinjenica da drasticno smanjuju svoje rv (od 450 mig29 samo ce 150 da se dovede na smt standard, narudzbina svega 300 pak-fa itd...).To nije bas sjajna politika sto se tice avijacije, dozvoliti da tvoj veliki broj aviona propada, dok ti prodajes avion po "extra" ceni koji ni sam nemas u rv(SU-30MKI).Inace moj favorit no. 2 za nase rv je SU-30(MKS Laughing ).



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Kristian_KG ::Mozda rusi smanjuju cenu jer nemaju dovoljno jak lobi?
Ne slazem se da Japanska vozila imaju losiju zavrsnu obradu od americkih ili evropskih.
U svakom slucaju treba da dignu cenu i dodatno zarade.


Lobiranje je u svakom slucaju bitan faktor!

Japanska vozila su uvek bila poznata po sirokoj upotrebi jeftine plastike na mestima gde su kod evropskih automobila bili plemenitiji i kvalitetniji materijali.

Ako mislis da trebaju da dignu cene , procitaj ovaj deo clanka koji je nedavno postavljen na temi MIG-31.

November 26, 2010: Russia has grounded all of its MiG-31 interceptors after one crashed. The 200 or so in service will be examined to see if there is a common defect that might cause others to crash. MiG aircraft in general have a reputation for these kinds of problems. Mig-21s, MiG-23/27s and MiG-29 all have had these design defect and quality control issues. Now the curse comes to the MiG-31.

Evo iskustva koje su indijci imali sa MIG-29

The Indian Air Force (InAF) MiG-29 Experience:

The Comptroller and Auditor General of India published on 31March1993 the results of an in depth study on the operational performance and reliability of the MiG-29 aircraft. This study was first reported in Aviation Week & Space Technology during 25July1994 (pg.49), and has been obtained by author from Mr. Pushpindar Singh, of the Society of Aerospace Studies, New Delhi.

65 x MiG-29 single-seat and 5 x dual-seat trainers with 48 x spare engines (sparing factor of 0.7/aircraft) were delivered between 1986 and 1990 at a total program cost of approximately $600 million that included initial spares and support. These aircraft were the first MiG-29's to ever leave the Soviet Union and were not up to the weapons system standard of those that went later to the Warsaw Pact allies. The aircraft were sent disassembled by sea, and re-assembled, and test flown in India. By 1990 three squadrons were operational. Two Flight Data Ground Processing Units were included to help pilots debrief their utilization of flight controls and systems. Expectations were that single-seat aircraft would fly 15 hours per month (180 hrs/yr) and dual-seat aircraft 20 hours per month (240 hrs/yr).

There were extensive problems encountered in operational and maintenance due to the large number of pre-mature failures of engines, components, and systems. Of the total of 189 engines in service, 139 engines (74%) failed pre-maturely and had been withdraw from service by July 1992, thus effectively shutting down operations. 62 of these engines had not even accomplished 50% of their 300 hours first overhaul point. Thus the desired serviceability showed a steadily decreasing trend.

Engineering reports mainly attribute RD-33 failures to design/material deficiencies causing discolored engine oil (Cool, (zabranjeno)s in the nozzle guide vanes (31), and surprisingly, foreign object damage (FOD). The eight material deficient engines (discolored oil) were repaired by the contractor under warrantee provisions, but the engines had to be recycled to the manufacturer. The thirty-one engines with (zabranjeno)s in their nozzle guide vanes were fixed in the field by contractor teams and adjustments were made to the entire engine fleet. But even though the incidents reduced the occurrences of the (zabranjeno)s, they continued. But the FOD situation is the most interesting, especially after the inlet FOD doors received world press coverage, but there were other concerns about production quality control that led to problems.

Since the Indian Air Force received early model Fulcrum A's, some just after the 200th production article, there were quality control deficiencies that resulted in numerous pieces of FOD (foreign object damage) and tools being left behind after final construction inside of the aircraft. Remember that the Fulcrum skeleton is made first and then the skin is riveted over top, in the way aircraft were made in the fifties and sixties in the West. Nuts, bolts, tools, etc. all made their way to the engine bays and inlet ducts and when they were loosened up after accelerations they damaged engines and equipment.

On top of all this, it was discovered that the unique FOD doors on the MiG-29's inlets were not stopping material from getting into the engine ducts. Since the doors retracted "up" into the inlet, debris that was kicked up by the nose wheel lodged on or at the bottom of the door seal and then was ingested into the engine when the door opened during the nose gear lifted off the ground during takeoff.

This problem was known from the earliest days. After the first four MiG-29 prototypes were evaluated, the nose gear was moved further back, but nose wheel "mud-flaps" or guards were still required to protect the engine from flying debris. It took until 1988 before all delivered aircraft were so equipped, therefore the initial batch of InAF aircraft had to be locally retro-fitted with mud guards and that activity was not completed until June 1992. All costs were supposed to be re-imbursed by the contractor but Mikoyan reneged and left the InAF with $300,000 in liabilities. In subsequent MiG-29K/M models the FOD doors were replaced by screens that closed "down", forcing any debris out of the louvers repositioned to the lower side of the inlet duct..

The Indian Air Force procurement contract was concluded in September 1986, and the first engine was expected to go into overhaul in 1989. However, four engines prematurely came up for overhaul and no repair facility had been prepared. As time went on, 115 of the 122 engines (94%) prematurely failed and had to be re-cycled through engine depots in Russia at great cost. Backlogs were created and only 79 (65%) engines returned on schedule. Even when a regional Indian repair facility was completed in August 1994, the high failure rates continued and the majority of broken engines had to be sent back to Russian depots. Self-sufficiency was achieved in 1994, only after the operations tempo was significantly reduced on a permanent basis. In the process of refurbishing failed engines, the total technical life of most of the engine fleet was effectively reduced from 800 hours / 8 years to 400 hours / 4 years, at a minimum.

Non-availability of radar and weapon system components also resulted in the grounding of seven aircraft for a period of six to twenty months. Two may have been damaged for life due to cannibalization. Besides this, a large number of subsystems and computers experienced unpredicted failures in the last four years which adversely effected the operational readiness of the squadrons. Some of the computers were field-repaired by specialists from the manufacturers, others were replaced. These repair costs were all in excess to the initial contract costs. It was noted that the 10 additional computers, which were imported, cost the InAF around $806,000. Two Flight Data Ground Processing Units quickly became unserviceable during their warranty period and have been lying un-utilized and un-repaired for over two years.

The InAF Headquarters also noted in March 1991 report that a severe shortage of product support equipment had resulted in the decline of fleet availability by 15-20%, which in turn, took negative effect on operational readiness and mission requirements.

So in general, lessons learned from this first out-of-country operation of a Russian front line fighter were:

1. The MiG-29 had intensive problems in operation and maintenance since its induction due to premature failure of engines, components, and systems. 74% of the engines failed within five years, were out of supply pipeline for three years, and reduced aircraft availability by 15, to 20%. This led to a decision to restrict flying efforts and therefore compromised operational and training commitments.

2. There were significant shortfalls in the performance of the MiG-29 fleet resulting in operational and training inadequacies. The shortfall ranged from 20 to 65% in respect to combat aircraft availability and 58 to 84% in trainers between 1987 - 1991.

3. There was a mismatch between induction of the aircraft (1987) and the establishment of its repair facilities (end of 1994). Until that time engines had to be continually sent to manufacturers abroad at great monetary cost, reduction of one-half total life, and a significant stretch of schedule.

4. Non-availability of critical radar components and spares resulted in the grounding of significant numbers of aircraft. Five aircraft were out of action for over six months while two were in the hanger for over two years. Unserviceability of computers and the inability to fix them cost excessive amounts of money to rectify.

5. The pilot debrief Ground Data Processing Unit, imported at high cost, was left lying around unserviceable and unused since its reception in August 1990.

6. The lack of nose wheel mud guards had to be solved by importing upgrade kits and expensive local re-design after material deficiencies could not be overcome.

With a regional support capability in place (regardless of how tenuous it was) and having one of the few respectable MiG-29 operating legacies, the Indian aerospace companies, especially Hindistan Aeronautical Ltd. (HAL), and the InAF became natural partners for MAPO in consummating the sale of MiG-29's to Malaysia. They were offered the opportunity to get involved with providing training and logistics support for the new Malaysian MiG-29 program. India, of course, gives greater credibility to MAPO in convincing customers that the MiG-29 is a viable fighter candidate for Pacific Rim nations. It remains to be seen, however, what solutions the new joint venture brings to the Indian Air Force problems.

Koliko para toliko muzike Wink

Dopuna: 06 Dec 2010 0:03

Ovaj tekst nigde direktno ne spominje SU-30, ali u globalu pokazuje neke od razloga zbog kojih su ruski avioni generalno jeftiniji od zapadnih, tako da nije toliko "off topic"

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sremac983 ::ljudi sta ima da vam bude nenormalno oko cene ruskih aviona u odnosu na zapadne. Logika je jednostavna, a to je da ove aveti sa zapada sve precenjuju. Pa vidi koliko im kostaju automobili u odnosu recimo na Japanske, a nisu duplo bolji.
O cemu bre ti pricas? Za jedan dzip u EU kupis dva u SAD-u i jos ti ostane kusur da vuces cisternu za sobom.

Citat:Takoti je i sa avionima, zato oni prodaju na komad, a rusi na stotine. I onda im rusi krivi sto niko nece da kupi njihov avion, sa njihovom cenom koja je duplo manja.
Amerika prodaje po jedan avion Question Ovo treba staviti ne kao izjavu godine, nego decenije.

Mogu da se slozim da Zapadnjaci vise deru nego sto moraju ali za sve ostalo...

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@sivisoko

Pa desila se Perestrojka, pa posle toga rasprad SSSR. Su-30 je nastao posle toga od aviona koji je radjen i SSSR da bude kvalitetan.

Dopuna: 06 Dec 2010 0:37

@salesam

Citat:
Mogu da se slozim da Zapadnjaci vise deru nego sto moraju ali za sve ostalo...


To kosta toliko jer ga ne pravi Ivan vec Zorz, Hans ili Tom. Razlika u platama je ogromna.

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Salesam,Su-30 je jeftin jer:

troskovi R&D maltene se mere u desetinama miliona i to kako-projekat je postojao,motor je postojao,air-frame je postojao,pa cak i prototipovi.
Za potrebe modernijih verzija razvijeni su samo motori sa VP odnosno dodat je VP,i razvijena je bolja elektronska oprema,pre svega noviji i jaci radari.I dobar deo proizvodne linije deli sa Su-27.Promene u fabrici su minmalne i preobuka tehnickog osoblja.
Sve drugo,je vec postojalo.Kod Su-35S je druga stvar.Prilicno se razlikuje i od predserije Su-35 (tzv. obicni Su-35),i u njega je ugradjen skroz nov motor,radar koji je razvijen od nule i jos mnogo toga.Zato ce i biti skuplji.
Prve verzije MiG-29 su zaista bile problematicne.Kasnije je to reseno,bolji motori,bolji radar,uopsteno bolja elektronska oprema,BITE itd,ali kasnije ih niko i nije kupovao,bar ne u tolikom broju,kao sto je kupovan 9-12.

Dopuna: 06 Dec 2010 0:40

I plus jeftinija radna snaga.To ti je logicno objasnjenje.

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sivisoko ::Ako amerikanac ili evropljanin koji radi na poligonu za sastavljanje aviona, ima platu od 5000 eura ili dolara, a ruski 200 ili 300, sigurno je da ce njihov proizvod biti skuplji samo na osnovu toga.
Ista situacija je i sa naucnicima i konstruktorima, koji su u rusiji u najteza vremena radili i dzabe samo zato sto su veliki patrioti i sto vole posao kojim se bave!

Ili sto im je glava bila na nisanu? To si izostavio. Za plate, naravno da uticu. Ali posto imam nekoliko drugara u Rusiji, ne bi rekao da je plata tamo kao kod nas mizernih 200-300 $ (cak naprotiv).

Citat:Ako recimo odredjene egzoticne rude mozes da dobijes iz svojih kopova, koje se obilato koriste u avio-industriji, svakako da njihova nabavna cena nece biti ista kao kada bi ih uvozio itd.
Poznato je da je rusija zemlja najbogatija prirodnim resursima, tako da i to utice na cenu finalnog proizvoda.
Zatim postupak i nacin obrade materijala, nacin sklapanja itd. moze biti jednostavniji i jeftiniji nego na zapadu, a posle ide i racunica, da li je bolje staviti manju cenu i prodati vise ili staviti vecu i prodati manje!

Sve na mestu.

Citat:I jos samo komentar vezan za japanske automobile u odnosu na evropske.

Ako pogledas zavrsnu obradu i materijale, videces da japanci zaostaju na tom polju sto itekako utice na cenu auta.
Kada su japanci pokusali da naprave auto koji bi bio u klasi sa recimo mercedesom, rodio se leksus, koji u ceni ne da zaostaje, cak je u vecini slucajeva i skuplji!

Nije bio samo u odnosu na Evropske, vec i u odnosu na SAD. Zapad su i jedni i drugi. Inace Leksus je na mnogo polja tehnoloski inovator, a prate ga Mecka, BMW, Jaguar, Kadilak (po nekim resenjime).

Citat:Ista stvar je i sa avionima.
Pogledaj zavrsnu obradu zapadnih i ruskih aviona.
Onima kojima je to bitno, platice vecu cenu, sto u konacnom zbiru ne znaci da je taj proizvod i bolji za ulogu koju treba da obavi (ovde se ogradjujem u slucaju stelt aviona, jer je tu zavrsna obrada izuzetno bitna radi smanjenja RCS)

Sve je to tacno. Nesto sam se setio, nesto nisam. Ovog konkretno jesam ali od razlike od pedeset miliona po jenom primerku boli glava. Ono sto mislim da je najvise u pitanju, je ugradnja na proizvodnu cenu. Sto je iskreno jako cudno jer je u Americi bilo pravilo da dobitak bude par procenata. Jeste ovo Vojna tehnologija i potpuno druga prica, koja uopste ne mora da odslikava to stanje (samo navodim ono sto znam, tacnije kako je bilo, da li je i dalje, to ne bi mogao da tvrdim). Odacu ti jednu "tajnu", ovde na tasnu od recimo 700din uzmu 300% i prodaju je za 2.700din, za igracku nabavne cene od 7.000din, e sad sedi cvrsto, treba kao kupac da platis 70.000din. Sve je navedeno iz prve ruke (provereno). Tamo je na 1$ zarada do 5-10centi, dok ovde na bananici od 3-4din, nasi hoce da zarade 6din (minimum 100%).

Zato mi nije jasno koliko to onda mali procenat ostvaruju Rusi? Mali pod znacima navoda jer se radi o milionima. Nek je u proizvodnji neki Zapadnjak 25 mil $, Ruski nek bude skoro upola, 15 mil $, ovi svoje prodaju za 70-90 mil $, dok ovi traze 30-50 mil $. A zaboravio sam, u stvari najvaznije, politiku i uticaj. Od Amera su kupovali, kupuju i kupovace jer mnogi prosto tako moraju, EU zavisi u mnogo toga od Amerike i isto dere sa cenama ali zato retko imaju kupce. Ruska politika je pametnija, manja zarada ali zato imaju prodaju. Ako se odnosi u svetu budu promenili siguran sam da ce i Americki avioni biti osetno jeftiniji nego sto ih danas prodaju. Sad im se moze da stavljaju cene koje hoce.

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  • x9  Male
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@sivisoko
mali off
Japanski automobili su godinama broj 1 u pojmu pouzdanosti i kvalitetu.nije zlato sve sto sija.ima jedan izraz ovde u nemachkom jeziku koji kaze "dojam kvaliteta",e tu su svi nemachki,italijanski tj.evropski auti bolji.ali kao sto rech kaze dojam nije isto i kvalitet Wink
Toyota ,Mazda ,Honda su nonstop u vrhu proizvodjaca,tj. smenjuju se kao broj 1 u pojmu kvaliteta,itd...
@tema
SU 30 je ejftinije jer im je kao sto su mnogi napisali radna snaga jeftinija,imaju svoje prirodne resurse,R&D im je velikoj meri smanjen zbog deljenja tehnologije sa SU27(hm da prebacim prichu na VW koncern,koji to isto radi u automobilskoj industriji,ali je i dalje ima bezobrazno skupe proizvode Wink )...
jednom recju SU 30 je kralj u pogledu "ulozeno-dobijeno" Ziveli

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Eureka za sve vas koji ste tek sad otkrili da je Vladin i Vladin omiljeni avion najbolji u odnosu cena+kvalitet.Na stranici 46 imate lep video link i to ruski o isporuci MKM Maleziji pa cete videti da se radilo u kooperaciji sa francuzima i nemcima oko ovog aviona cisto da ne bi nagadjali,a valjda njima verujete,ako ne pojedinim clanovima ovde.

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e moj VLVL,sve MI to znamo...znaju to i ONI,ali su druge stvari u pitanju.

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