Automati u naoružanju

204

Automati u naoružanju

offline
  • voja64 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 10 Okt 2012
  • Poruke: 13341
  • Gde živiš: Stanovnik ITEBE-JA Srpskog

http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/1652396394.....odelo-1929
12.Septembr na historicalfirearms.info je predstavljen Subametralladora Modelo 1929-Spanish copy of the Bergmann MP28,II






Subametralladora Modelo 1929

The Modelo 1929 (sometimes refered to as the Naranjero) is a Spanish copy of the Bergmann MP28,II. The design is almost identical using a blowback action and feeding from a box magazine. Unlike the MP28,II, the Modelo 1929 was chambered in the 9x23mm Bergmann-Bayard (Largo) round - Spain’s chosen pistol cartridge.

Another significant difference to the original submachine gun was the Modelo 1929′s use of a cast brass magazine housing. The magazine housing was a complex piece to machine and casting proved simpler. This was something the British also did to speed up production of the Lanchester machine carbine. The Modelo 1929 fed from a 32-round box magazine which was not interchangeable with those used by the MP28,II.

The Modelo 1929 was one of Spain’s first submachine guns and as many as perhaps 5,000 were made, no doubt seeing service during the Spanish Civil War.
U knjizi Diverzant ima jedan pasus u kome je IVAN HARIŠ nh poznat i kao ILIJA GROMOVNIK opisao ovaj automat sa kojim se susreo u Španskom građanskom ratu.



Registruj se da bi učestvovao u diskusiji. Registrovanim korisnicima se NE prikazuju reklame unutar poruka.
offline
  • voja64 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 10 Okt 2012
  • Poruke: 13341
  • Gde živiš: Stanovnik ITEBE-JA Srpskog

http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/1651675955.....917-mauser
10.Septembra na historicalfirearms.info je predstavljen Mauser Model 1917 ‘Trench Carbine’
Meni je ovo klasični Mauser C96 samo u pokušaju da se od pištolja uzdigne do automata..Prosudite sami.







Mauser Model 1917 ‘Trench Carbine’

In 1917, Mauser Werke responded to a request from the German Army’s Gewehr-Prufungs-Kommission (GPK) to submit a new weapon to equip Sturmtruppen. This weapon would later become known as the submachine gun. The GPK began its search in 1915, with a number of manufacturers developing designs including Rhinemetall, Walther, Bergmann and Schwarzlose.

Mauser’s submission consisted of a development from their popular C96 pistol. Chambered in 9x19mm the Model 1917 ‘Trench Carbine’ was semi-automatic only so did not completely meet the GPK’s specification for a close-bolt automatic submachine gun. The Model 1917, unlike the C96 pistol, fed from an impressive double stack, double feed 40-round detachable magazine - 10 and 20 round magazines were also made. The carbine’s receiver has no stripper clip guide like the pistols it was based on.

From the few available images of the surviving examples it appears that the later serial number guns (including #31, see images #2 & #3) had extended magazine housings when compared to the earlier Model 1917 prototypes (such as serial #5, see image #4). As a result the shorter magazines (see in image #4) would not have fitted the later guns. The shape of the hammers and the design of the sights as well as the shape of the ejection port also varies between the early and late examples.

Pre-war commercial C96 carbine with front sight protector and detachable stock (source)

The carbine had a full fixed stock and a foregrip similar to earlier Mauser C96 carbines such as the commercial Jagdkarabiner. One clear difference from other C96s is that Mauser extended the rear of the receiver to prevent hammer bite. The carbine also had a disassembly plunger inside the trigger guard. The small magazine release was located below the trigger guard. The Model 1917 may have been a better fit for Sturmtruppen than the Lange Pistole 08 with its more ergonomic stock, however, Mauser’s carbine would certainly not have been a cheap weapon to manufacture.

While the GPK considered the Mauser carbine it did not adopt the weapon. Instead, the Bergmann MP18,I was later selected, despite firing from an open bolt, as it met the fully automatic requirement and its simplicity impressed the GPK. Mauser’s 40-round box magazine was certainly superior, however, the MP18,I fed from the 32-round Trommelmagazin as this was had been in production since late 1916. Mauser made an estimated 40 Model 1917 carbines and while tested none were issued. Perhaps as few as four examples survive today.



offline
  • bojank 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 31 Dec 2011
  • Poruke: 7718

Mauser je bio konkurent MP-18.
Bilo je 5 konkurenata:
Bergmann/Schmeisser MP-18 - usvojen
Walther - stavljao sam slike, jako interesantan, ali ga je suludi okvir upropastio
Mauser - gore
Luger - cudoviste

DWM - prakticno nepoznato sta je isti bio. Sumnja se da su DWM-ov i Lugerov prototip bili ista stvar, ali se u dokumentaciji spominje da je bilo 5 konkurenata...
Na kraju MP-18 je bio najrealnije i najprostije resenje.

offline
  • voja64 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 10 Okt 2012
  • Poruke: 13341
  • Gde živiš: Stanovnik ITEBE-JA Srpskog

Kopajući da nađem ta dva resto konkurenta sam umesto tog Waltera naleteo na predstavljanje drugog iz ranih 60ih ili kasnih 50ih serija MP u verzijama L i K.
Walther MP Submachine Gun
Njegova interesantna priča o nastanku ,braći iz istih ili sličnih familija kao i slike na kraju.. su odavde..
http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/1241000441.....r-mp-was-a

The Walther MP was a German submachine gun which has been somewhat lost in the shadow of its more famous contemporary, the HK MP5. Developed in the late 1950s and early 1960s the Walther MP entered production in 1963. Chambered in 9mm the weapon was an open bolt, blowback submachine gun with a stamped steel receiver and folding rubberised wire stock. The MP had a non-reciprocating bolt handle and an ‘L’ shaped bolt which when closed sits partially above the barrel (see image #3). This significantly reduced the length of the gun’s receiver.




The Walther MP came in two variants the MPL (Maschinen Pistole Lange) which was 75cm long (with stock extended) and the MPK (Maschinen Pistole Kurz) which measured 66cm long. The MPK was also 0.2kg lighter than the MPL, both were capable of a rate of fire of 550 rounds per minute. The weapon had a number of interesting features including a combination peep and snap shooting sight which places a broad notch sight above a peep sight. This allowed for instinctive point shooting and more precise aimed fire.

A common problem for open bolt submachine guns is that when dropped with enough force the mass of the bolt will travel to the rear and cycle the weapon’s action even when the gun has been left in the seemingly safe bolt closed position. To combat this the Walther MP had both a selector switch/safety and an additional safety sear which prevented the weapon’s bolt from being jolted backwards and cycling the gun when dropped. image Photograph from the LF-57′s manual (source)
Interestingly the MP shares a striking resemblance to the Italian Franchi LF-57 which was developed during the same period. The LF-57 was also stamped and although not internally identical it does have a similar ‘L’ shaped bolt. The LF-57 lacked a safety/selector like the MP and instead had a large grip safety and a push button selector. The LF-57 also had simpler sights, zeroed for just 50m rather than 100m and 200m. The Italian Navy was the only service to adopt the LF-57 in 1962. Little is written about the two gun’s striking similarities but the LF-57 was likely developed from Giuseppe Oliani’s Armaguerra OG-44 prototype and Beretta’s experiments with ‘L’ shaped and telescoping bolts.image

Oliani’s prototype Armaguerra OG-44 bears more than a passing resemblance to the layout of the later LF-57 and Walther MP (source)

While not as successful as its more famous HK rival the Walther remained in production for twenty years with the last built in mid 1980s. The MP was bought by a number of West German police departments and the Mexican, Portuguese and German navy. Some were also used by US special forces and South African police.

offline
  • voja64 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 10 Okt 2012
  • Poruke: 13341
  • Gde živiš: Stanovnik ITEBE-JA Srpskog

U pretrazi za DWM submachine gun sam iskopao ove slike i nadam se da je to taj konkurent..


offline
  • Recce 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 18 Apr 2011
  • Poruke: 4211

Ovo je izuzetno lepa i retka kombinacija dugocevnog (artiljerijskog) Lugera sa specificnim puzastim magacinom ali nije automat.

offline
  • goxin 
  • Elitni građanin
  • Pridružio: 20 Dec 2013
  • Poruke: 1822
  • Gde živiš: Srpsko Sarajevo

Gdje je granica izmedju automata i automatskog pistolja ?
Evo primjer m 61/m 84 ,7.65 mm i uzi ?

offline
  • voja64 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 10 Okt 2012
  • Poruke: 13341
  • Gde živiš: Stanovnik ITEBE-JA Srpskog

Napisano: 23 Sep 2017 12:51

Po meni za status automata bi trebalo da se pored pištoljske municije na istom ostvaruje i veći domet zbog duže cevi .Tako se i javljaju zbrke da se neka oružja sa puščanim metkom i kraćom cevi isto nazivaju automati a ima i obrnutog slučaja da se neki automati ubrajaju u iste iako bi logičnije zbog kratke cevi kao na pištoljima a zbog mogućnosti automatske-rafalne vatre uvrste u automatske pištolje.
A m61 je greška ako si mislio na originalni Škorpion njemu je oznaka VZ61

Dopuna: 23 Sep 2017 12:55

Andrews Machine Carbine
http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/1614061027.....ws-machine
The Andrews Machine Carbine is an interesting side-note to the history of submachine guns during the Second World War. Little information is available on the weapon itself, although some relatively good black and white photographs exist.

Developed by an Australian designer - Andrews, first name unknown, in 1942-43. Prototypes of the weapon were made under a private contract by the Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) in 1943. BSA had also worked on the SOE’s Welgun project so had experience producing submachine guns.

The weapon used a conventional blowback action and fed from Sten magazines from the left side of the receiver. The Andrews had two recoil spring guide rods which ran the full length of the receiver with the barrel positioned between them. The weapons bolt also rode on the guide rods, as a result the trigger mechanism is attached to the right side of the receiver in a separate housing with what looks to be a safety catch, with the marking ‘S’ on it. BSA Marked the side plate of this housing with ‘Andrews Machine Carbine’. The trigger, but not the folding pistol grip, is also offset to the right.

The weapon does not appear to use the Sten’s magazine release and what appears to be a single sling loop at the rear of the receiver seems to actually be a ring-pull cocking device. Presumably pulled to bring the bolt to the rear. No conventional cocking handle can be seen in the available photographs. Another photograph shows the weapon using a Sten magazine as a sort of stock (see image #4), although it is unclear how this attached to the receiver. The wear pattern to the weapon’s finish (see images #1 & #2) suggests that the front of the receiver is enclosed by a sliding dust cover which can be pulled to the rear to cover the ejection port. Note the cutout in the cover for the trigger mechanism housing. From the photographs available there is no corresponding cutout on the other side for the magazine housing which suggests the magazine housing and release may be attached to the sliding dust cover. How this design feature affected the weapon’s feed reliability is unclear.

The Andrews’ compact design and folding grip might suggest the weapon was perhaps intended for clandestine purposes like the Welrod pistol. The British Army’s Ordnance Board tested the weapon at Pendine in September - November 1943. Following comparative tests with a raft of other contemporary machine carbines the Board reported the Andrews was “not a comfortable [gun] to hold, the barrel casing being too smooth and thick and the pistol grip too small… The change lever and safety catch mechanism is weak and often fails to function correctly.” The ‘magazine buttstock’ was deemed “liable to come loose.” The Andrews’ “sliding outer barrel casing became bent and prevented the gun being closed and is a definite weakness.” The report notes that the Andrews suffered by far the most stoppages with 18 failures. The report concluded that the Andrews had “one or two serious defects and is not very robust.” As no need for the weapon was envisaged, no further action with the design was recommended.






offline
  • bojank 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 31 Dec 2011
  • Poruke: 7718

voja64 ::U pretrazi za DWM submachine gun...

Nema ni jedne sacuvane slike, cak ni opisa istog, samo podatak da je DWM imao svog konkurenta.
E sada, kamen u tu teoriju baca cinjenica da je DWM bio veliki proizvodjac Luger pistolja i Maksim mitraljeza, na cemu je bazirano ono gore Lugerovo cudoviste pa neki misle da je to zapravo DWM/Luger-ov zajednicki projekt a da je postojao jos jedan prototip nepoznate firme...

Sto se tice Walther-ovog konkurenta:
https://www.mycity-military.com/Pesadijsko-naoruza.....l#p1992820
https://www.mycity-military.com/Pesadijsko-naoruza.....l#p1993831

offline
  • voja64 
  • Legendarni građanin
  • Pridružio: 10 Okt 2012
  • Poruke: 13341
  • Gde živiš: Stanovnik ITEBE-JA Srpskog

Napisano: 23 Sep 2017 16:26

Nisam ga uspeo iskopati ali zato evo još jednog automata sa početka 60ih iz Australije:
F1 Submachine Gun


Ima i slika prvih modela u razvoju F1





Korišten u Vijetnamu od 1962-1972.g.

The F1 weighed just over 7lbs (3.2kg), was 28 inches long and had a cyclic rate of approximately 600 rounds per minute. It used a detachable solid butt stock, unlike the Sterling which had a folding stock. The F1 was produced by the Lithgow Small Arms Factory where 25,000 were produced for the Australian military between 1963 and 1972. The Owen and later F1s saw extensive service in Malaya and Vietnam being issued to rear echelon troops, ACP and aircraft crews and to infantry sections. It remained in service alongside the L1A1 into the early 1990s when both were phased out of use as the 5.56x45mm F88 (Steyr AUG) was adopted.






Dopuna: 23 Sep 2017 16:35

http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/1427592483.....he-39m-was
Dobra priča sa razvojem Mađarskog
Danuvia 39M & 43M Submachine Guns Pál D. Király Konstruktor.

Ko je trenutno na forumu
 

Ukupno su 352 korisnika na forumu :: 6 registrovanih, 1 sakriven i 345 gosta   ::   [ Administrator ] [ Supermoderator ] [ Moderator ] :: Detaljnije

Najviše korisnika na forumu ikad bilo je 1540 - dana 15 Jul 2016 20:19

Korisnici koji su trenutno na forumu:
Korisnici trenutno na forumu: Dimitrise93, drasko003, ivica976, Milos1977, nadag, vuk_82