NATO - juče, danas i sutra

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Videce mo 7 jula,vazan datum Ivanjdan ili dan borca -zavisi od ideologije

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Napisano: 25 Jun 2014 1:16

freelancer ::По изборима, нешто испод 4%...
Na izbore je izaslo oko 50%. Znaci 2%. Sto bi se reklo - non-entity.

Citat:
...За тебе није ни чуо 1% грађана Србије, па ти износиш своје мишљење (иако си промашио тему, коментариши NATO, а не Двери).

Masis poentu - ja ne pokusavam da skupljam jeftine politicke poene tako sto cu da vicem "Mrzim NATO i sve sto mrze mladi".

Dopuna: 25 Jun 2014 1:18

voja64 ::I ja sam za referendum a narod mož do tada da poseti bresplatno kulturni centar Srpsko Natovskog prijateljstva koji neprekidno radi od kraja Marta 1999.g.

Bas tako. Pa ako je narod glup i zaboravan neka glasa za NATO.

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Leonardo ::Da li to neko želi izjednačiti važnost Srbije sa Zapadnom Nemačkom.

Srbiju neutralnost može manje koštat, jer treba imati u vidu nove 'okolnosti' u nekim odnosima. Nisam siguran dam je potrebam takav angažman. Mali smo, a neka se slonovi guraju.

Srušen centar, a periferija i industrija skoro netaknuta.

Prvo važan si onoliko koliko sam sebe uspeš da predstaviš važnim u svakom pogledu. Drugo slažem se da bi Srbija trebala da se kloni bilo kakih konfortacija sa istokom ili zapadom, ali ponekada mi se čini iako mi to hoćemo ne daju nam, jel kada se pogledaju vesti i ono što se zbiva sa ovim regionom uvek smo mi u centru zbivanja. Jednostavno kao što su nekoliko puta i ponovili sa zapada oni nas smatraju malim Rusima i kao takve imaju dosta podozrenja prema nama, kada se na to nadovežu pitanja Kosova, južnog toka i još mnogo čega dolazimo do toga da koliko god se mi klonili problema problemi nekako pronalaze nas. E sada što se tiče neutralnosti nije dovoljno da mi proglasimo sebe za neutralne već moraju da drugi poštuju tu neutralnost, a to prvi NATO ne želi da poštuje, Rusija bi možda i bila zadovoljna sa time da Srbija ostane vojno neutralna. Drugo mi stremimo EU koja sama po sebi ima svoje vojne snage tako da ni u tom pogledu ne možemo biti neutralni. A kada uzmemo u obzir zemlje koje su u EU a nisu članice NATO kao što su Finska, Austrija, Švedska, svi oni sarađuju i to veoma tesno sa NATO učestvuju u njihovim misijama itd tako da tu nema govora o nekoj pravoj neutralnosti. Jednostavno EU i NATO su dva saveza koja su usko povezana, gde EU nekoliko puta ponavlja (naravno niži činovnici) da će Srbija morati da prođe isti put kao i sve zemlje istočne Evrope koje su kao garant svoje pripadnosti EU prvo postajele članice NATO pa onda i EU. Ne vidim razloga a i znajući sistem kojim se EU služi malo je infaltilno očekivati da će da menjaju neka svoja pravila zbog neke Srbije. Naravno nama će dati malo više prostora oko prijema u NATO zog rata i rana koje su dosta sveže ali mislim da će slediti isti princip kao i sa drugim članicama. A još po nešto o neutralnosti koja zahteva da nemamo nikakve teritorijalne pretenzije prema susedima, da imamo rešena sve teritorijalne sporove, da imamo tradiciju neutralnosti i još mnogo toga. Ako se odlučimo da se odreknemo svih teritorijalnih pretenzija to znači da smo se pomirili sa gubitkom KiM i ostalih srpskih zemalja koje smatramo da su nam silom oduzete, i koje želimo u budućnosti da vratimo. Neutralnsot Srbiji neće doneti ništa, mi ćemo biti priterani uza zid i moraćemo da biramo ili smo sa NATO ili da tražimo neku alternativu u vidu saveza sa Rusijom.

A ako pričaš o industriji Nemačke svi znamo kako je prošla posle savezničkih bombardovanja da je bila netaknuta, ne bi morali da sprovode maršalov plan itd da ne širim temu.

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Napisano: 26 Jun 2014 7:58

Šta pravite od teme?
Nato da ali ne je druga tema.
Vojne aktivnosti srbske vojske je druga tema!

Dopuna: 26 Jun 2014 10:46

NATO Allies Mull Ending Patriot Mission in Turkey
[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]
Citat:NATO allies have started preliminary consultations on concluding the Patriot missile mission in Turkey at the end of 2014, German media reported on Sunday. . . .
NATO allies Germany and the Netherlands believe that after the full transportation of Syria's chemical weapons, material and equipment from the country, the continuation of Patriot deployment would be unnecessary, the weekly argued.
Turkey Raises Fears Over Potential Spillover From Iraq
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Citat:Turkey raised fears on Wednesday over potential spillover from turmoil in neighboring Iraq, as NATO promised not to hesitate to defend its ally from the widening conflict.
Speaking on the sidelines of a NATO gathering in Brussels, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu called for greater cooperation with its allies to meet the threat posed by the rise of extremist militants in Iraq and the continuing civil war in Syria.
Pa da vidimo ovu akciju NATO-a.

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dragon986 ::Prvo važan si onoliko koliko sam sebe uspeš da predstaviš važnim u svakom pogledu. Drugo slažem se da bi Srbija trebala da se kloni bilo kakih konfortacija sa istokom ili zapadom, ali ponekada mi se čini iako mi to hoćemo ne daju nam, jel kada se pogledaju vesti i ono što se zbiva sa ovim regionom uvek smo mi u centru zbivanja. Jednostavno kao što su nekoliko puta i ponovili sa zapada oni nas smatraju malim Rusima i kao takve imaju dosta podozrenja prema nama, kada se na to nadovežu pitanja Kosova, južnog toka i još mnogo čega dolazimo do toga da koliko god se mi klonili problema problemi nekako pronalaze nas. E sada što se tiče neutralnosti nije dovoljno da mi proglasimo sebe za neutralne već moraju da drugi poštuju tu neutralnost, a to prvi NATO ne želi da poštuje, Rusija bi možda i bila zadovoljna sa time da Srbija ostane vojno neutralna. Drugo mi stremimo EU koja sama po sebi ima svoje vojne snage tako da ni u tom pogledu ne možemo biti neutralni. A kada uzmemo u obzir zemlje koje su u EU a nisu članice NATO kao što su Finska, Austrija, Švedska, svi oni sarađuju i to veoma tesno sa NATO učestvuju u njihovim misijama itd tako da tu nema govora o nekoj pravoj neutralnosti. Jednostavno EU i NATO su dva saveza koja su usko povezana, gde EU nekoliko puta ponavlja (naravno niži činovnici) da će Srbija morati da prođe isti put kao i sve zemlje istočne Evrope koje su kao garant svoje pripadnosti EU prvo postajele članice NATO pa onda i EU. Ne vidim razloga a i znajući sistem kojim se EU služi malo je infaltilno očekivati da će da menjaju neka svoja pravila zbog neke Srbije. Naravno nama će dati malo više prostora oko prijema u NATO zog rata i rana koje su dosta sveže ali mislim da će slediti isti princip kao i sa drugim članicama. A još po nešto o neutralnosti koja zahteva da nemamo nikakve teritorijalne pretenzije prema susedima, da imamo rešena sve teritorijalne sporove, da imamo tradiciju neutralnosti i još mnogo toga. Ako se odlučimo da se odreknemo svih teritorijalnih pretenzija to znači da smo se pomirili sa gubitkom KiM i ostalih srpskih zemalja koje smatramo da su nam silom oduzete, i koje želimo u budućnosti da vratimo. Neutralnsot Srbiji neće doneti ništa, mi ćemo biti priterani uza zid i moraćemo da biramo ili smo sa NATO ili da tražimo neku alternativu u vidu saveza sa Rusijom.
Nabacao si puno misli koje samo tebi čine neku logičnu celinu. Iskreno, bez uvrede, deluje mi kao da si zavrtao vutru u pamflete pojedinih stranaka, pa ti se nešto mnogo loše pričinjava. I meni se tako znalo omaći da kažem kako 'idemo u nato', jer su pojedinci kao papagaji neprestano to ponoavljali. Vremena se menjaju...

Srbija već sarađuje. Sve znaju o nama. Nismo im više interesantni. Pacifikovani smo. Danas smo važni poput starleta o kojima mediji pišu nekoliko godina i onda nestanu kao da ih nikad nije ni bilo. Prihvatali mi njihove stavove i viziju Balkana ili ne, oni guraju svoju priču već dve i po decenije. Saradnja sa susedima i NATO zemljama se ne dovodi u pitanje, ali ulazak u EU nije uslovljen našim ulaskom u NATO. To su ideje pojedinih krugova, pojedinaca i političara u našoj zemlji i inostranstvu. Njihovo mišljenje nije nimalo obavezujuće i važno je kao lanjski sneg. Mnogo smo bitni pa se sad lome koplja oko toga gde će Srbija sutra zakoračiti. Neće se tu puno ništa izmeniti, sem što možemo dobiti samo još jedan suvišan teret da vuglimo kao mazge, kakve očito jesmo u celini.

Iskreni političari i predstavnici, a kojima ništa u životu ne znači promovisanje NATO-a, već odavno ponavljaju da ulazak u NATO nije obavzujuć, već stvar odluke naših političara i volje naroda. Ne znam kako nekome može ideja o ulasku u NATO biti opcija, nakon što smo bili saveznici u dva svetska rata, gde je npr. u drugom spašeno 1152 vazduhoplovaca, a onda te proglase za najveće zlo na svetu dok istovremeno u Africi neki pobiše milion ljudi, te te pospu sa 30 hiljada bombi i oduzmu ti 1/7 zemlje.

Da li treba nastaviti priču o malignim i kardiovaskularnim oboljenjima? Da li treba govoriti o Srbiji koja tiho nestaje?

Od mene Ende na ovu temu.

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Napisano: 29 Jun 2014 10:22

How would an independent Scotland defend itself and its interests?
By Stephen Daisley
30 May 2014 14:16 BST

Defence: Security questions are fundamental to statecraft.SWNS
The first duty of government, wrote Scottish Enlightenment thinker Adam Smith, is "protecting the society from violence and invasion of other independent societies".

That principle forms the bedrock of classical liberal conceptions of the nation-state. Defend the homestead first, goes this philosophy, and then you can enjoy the bounties of freedom and opportunity.

Consider, for example, how America’s founding fathers designed their constitution to "provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity".

But how should a nation be defended, what arms should it hold, and how much should it spend on its security?

These questions go to the heart of the debate over whether Scotland’s security is best served inside the UK or as an independent country.

What are Scotland's defence needs?

“Two thirds of our power is violence
It is cunning we need."
Derick Thomson

Defence is about the protection of material interests and the projection of strength and values. An independent Scotland would have to decide what it stood for and what it wanted its world standing to be, and from there build a military infrastructure to meet its strategic objectives.

The debate on defence and independence has been dominated by two policy outlooks.

The first, embodied by the UK Government and other critics of independence, advocates significant defence spending, large fighting forces, overseas deployment, humanitarian military intervention, close military and intelligence cooperation with the United States and retention of the independent nuclear deterrent.

(© STV)
via STV
Proponents of this worldview question whether an independent Scotland could afford a viable defence infrastructure or whether the armed forces blueprint outlined by the Scottish Government would meet Scotland's security needs.

There is another school of thought that says a small country with no declared enemies amongst the nations of the world does not need a large fighting force. Instead, subscribers to this view argue, an independent Scotland could design an agile military streamlined towards its strategic needs and unburdened by costly cudgels like Trident, the nuclear submarine system situated at the Clyde Naval Base.

Former tank commander Stuart Crawford and economist Richard Marsh, for example, have suggested an independent Scottish defence model budgeted at £2bn, consisting of 20-25 ships, 60 aircraft, 10,000-12,500 personnel, but with no Typhoon or Tornado jets, no tanks and no heavy artillery.

Defence by the numbers

11,100 regular armed forces and 4000 Ministry of Defence (MoD) personnel are based in Scotland.
The UK Government says regular forces will rise to 12,500 by 2020.
Fifty MoD sites throughout Scotland.
2200 volunteer reservists in Scotland.
Reservists will reach 4250 by 2018, UK ministers estimate.
11,500 cadets north of the Border.
The Clyde Naval Base employs 6700 military and civilian workers.
The Coalition plans to recruit an additional 1500 workers at Faslane by 2022.
£140m per year: the annual MoD spend on the Scottish defence estate.
UK Ministers say they will spend an extra £100m on army bases and a further £85m on RAF Lossiemouth.
Source: HM Government

What would Scotland's armed forces look like?

(STV)
via STV
The Scottish Government's blueprint for an independent fighting force echoes the model offered by Crawford and Marsh. The White Paper commits the current administration to a defence budget of £2.5bn; the removal of the Trident nuclear deterrent; prioritising air and sea-based patrol as well as coastal protections; 15,000 regular and 5000 reserve personnel by 2026; and transforming Faslane into a conventional naval base and Scotland's defence headquarters.

Opponents of independence, however, have warned that independence would undermine Scotland's security and its defence industry. Dr Azeem Ibrahim of the Scotland Institute contends that "independence would not make Scotland either cheaper or easier to defend" and imagines Scottish armed forces reduced to "a limited number of niche functions such as protecting Scotland's fisheries and oil refineries."

Independence could cost Scotland the "privileged access" to defence trade it enjoys as part of the UK, the coalition government has warned. Meanwhile, Gordon Brown's former national security adviser Lord West says defence job losses under independence could be as high as 25,000.

Could Scotland join an international defence organisation?


via STV
The Scottish Government wants an independent Scotland to be a member of Nato, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

Nato is a military alliance of 28 North American and European countries "resolved to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security". Originally founded to act as a check on Soviet expansionism and the Communist threat, Nato has gone on to intervene in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Libya. The United States, the UK and France are the only Nato members known to have an independent nuclear capability but Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Turkey host US nuclear weapons.

Isn’t the SNP opposed to Nato?

For the past three decades, the SNP rejected an independent Scotland's membership of Nato and voiced criticism of Nato actions such as the aerial strikes against Slobodan Milošević's Serbia, which Alex Salmond famously called "unpardonable folly".

However, in October 2012 the Nationalists voted to change their policy towards a pro-Nato stance. The decision proved controversial on the left of the SNP and two Nationalist MSPs bolted the party over the U-turn.

The Scottish Government says Nato membership "will be in the interests of Scotland, the rest of the UK and other Nato members" and ministers argue Scotland would use its place in the alliance to cooperate on maritime defence and training.

Does everyone who wants independence want us to join Nato?

(© HEMEDIA / SWNS Group)
via STV
The Scottish Greens remain opposed to Nato because of its "aggressive projection of power" and its status as a nuclear-armed alliance. Nato critics argue that it is hypocritical to scrap nuclear weapons on a national level while joining an international organisation based around nuclear arms.

Radical supporters of independence advocate a non-aligned defence policy that avoids what they see as the militarism of the UK and the United States. These pro-independence voices assert that such a stance would preclude Scottish participation in military campaigns such as the US-led intervention in Iraq, which they consider to have been in contravention of international law.

The left-wing Jimmy Reid Foundation believes an independent Scotland should stay out of Nato and instead articulate a four-pronged defence policy: non-aggression, prohibition of weapons of mass destruction, deference to international law and rejection of military alliances with countries which do not comply with international law

Dopuna: 29 Jun 2014 10:24

news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/guides/266549-scotland-decides-defence-trident-nato-and-independence/

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Škoti neće imati para za sve. I još ako raskrste sa Engleskom onda brodogradnja pada.
Finland Appoints 'NATO Hawk' as New PM
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Citat:“Stubb is so pro-NATO and so right-wing. In essence, he is a radical, market liberal NATO hawk,” said Timo Soini, the chairman of Finland’s Perussuomalaiset (True Finns) party. “The National Coalition Party [NCP] is moving from conservatism to liberalism. It remains to be seen how this will affect Finland’s defense policy and relations with Russia.”
Citat:NATO membership, Haglund said, may not arise for serious debate during the present govern­ment’s term, but it is “very likely” that the issue will be dealt with during the next government’s term in 2015-19.

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NATO General, Bridlav: SAD će pojačati i proširiti svoje oružane snage u Evropi!
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Latvian NATO Center to Counter Russia 'Propaganda'
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Citat:Latvia on Thursday said it would open a NATO-backed strategic communications center in the capital Riga amid fears the Kremlin is influencing the Baltic state’s large ethnic Russian minority over the Ukraine crisis.
The center will focus on providing an alternative to the official Russian narrative on the crisis and should receive full NATO accreditation “by the end of the summer,” the Latvian defense ministry told AFP.

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Neki dan su nas ovi NATovci jopet posetili.
Nišlije ih lepo ugostile za razliku od njiove poslednje posete Nišu iz 1999.
Tad su se NATOvci baš potrudili da ostave utisak..
Šire se i po Niškoj čaršiji..