super7 is an evolution of mig21 --- after that paf engineers/pilots involvement produced jft prototype1 and 4 -- jft is considerably different from super7
EagleHannan
''
A few weeks ago, I showed the leaked pics to some PAF personal and they agreed that top brass of PAF has always known of this project and the pictures are indeed the J-20. However, like all Pakistani acquisations, we are NOT interested in J-20 as it is. China is where the Stealth 5th generation MRCA will be bought from but that wont exactly be J-20.
The way PAF deals with and has always delath with Chinese manufacturers (JF-17s are exception) is that we let them present what they have. Then analyse and give them our own requirements and integrate our man power and share information we get from our own sources into the project.
Eaxmples: F-7MG --> F-7PG (Chinese couldnt come up with avionics so we bought it from theird party back when sun used to shine well in west for PAF)
J-10 --> J-10B
LIke I said before, we have no input so far in this J-20. A few have laid eyes on it. My source told me, it will be another J-20 --> J-20-B story when Chinese will put it on Table. Chances are the thing will NOT be on table anytime before 2015. For many reasons, including sales of J-10. Any plane operating with PAF is a free marketing for Chinese companies (I was so proud of it when an AVIC personal said it to me in the presence of PAF personal that the world trusts PAFs standards).
Chinese want to see J-10B in considerable number before even offering J-20. The money + interest of Chinese companies is in NOT offering Pakistan J-20 unless J-10B is flying with PAF in number.
PAF exercised their judgment back in 2007, PAF could either choose to go with large number of F-16s or bring in J-10B. My info on this is, Chinese clearly denied to do anything with J-10 unless the orders of F-16s are cut down. PAF did burn their boats after agreeing to it (I am glad they did. Thanks Allah for that) and sent thier team for a long tern partnership with China (Currently located in Chingdu). It was only after then that the Chinese let in PAF/PAC engineers tweak with J-10s and we saw the J-10B.
Time line for J-20 in small batch can easily be after 2016 and only then PAF might be invited to jump in.
"It more like you show confidence and commit to the cause." All companies work like it. Chinese business mentality is as such, they want to know before selling if they'll get money or not. It simple plain business. They knew once the funds are allocated to F-16s there is a little chance Pakistan will jump in on J-10B. PAF at that time was not confident on J-10 as a top tier AC. But once Chinese allowed us in on design and avionics, PAF did cut orders for F-16s. I remember when early J-10 cockpit pictures were released, we all concluded that it’s no better than JF-17 and then near exact layout was brought in on J-10s later since Pakistan committed to J-10B.
Sir, for J-10s Pakistan is given very generous deal, inshallah I'll write about it when I am permitted to. I must commend Chinese for their business ideas. They knew Pakistan back in 2005/6 is not interested in J-10s and that simply means no market for J-10 outside China as the world sees Pakistan as the launch customer of anything good coming from China. Examples are J6/F-6, J7/F-7, J7MGs/F-7PG and inshallah FC-1/JF-17s. There was no sales of JH-7 and J-8MII, even when they were offered to many and are serving PLAAF in numbers.
I think, it was PakDef where back in 2006, I wrote that there is serious evaluation of J-10 going on. PAF saw the potential and wanted R&D with Chinese on another version of partially same air frame but improved avionics. PAF brought in their info on an F-16 version avionics that was to be unveiled in Middle East. In fact the RFP sent to LM was forwarded to Chinese with minor changes (That’s not my assumption or speculation).
As per Allah's will and thankfully it was in a good way that we finally decided to peal away from US dependence. I can imagine if we would have put our eggs in US basket, what would have been the situation today. "Never again" was rightly exercised.
Right now, the planned acquisition of J-10B's first batch is in mid of 2013 Inshallah. Engine is a hurdle (this is my speculation). We might not want to go for AL31FN and as per my info WS-10 is not failed but having teething problems, bad ones. Other than that, I confirm the engine is built with high grade materials and new labs are being built to check the manufacturing process for it. This shows commitment and promise. Some PAF personal visiting these labs told me, they are impressed. Nanjing institute is prime contractor for Radar (both Air born and AD. AD team is here already and inshallah we'll see some joint project in AD as well)for PAF.
Dopuna: 20 Jul 2011 10:51
jft in zuhai airshow
Dopuna: 24 Jul 2011 18:35
from french
Translation
Yellow - Ensure the contract of 50 Pakistani FC-1
Blue - Signature of the export of L-15 to start the client (?)
Green - Strive to signing the contract to export J-10
Purple - Promote the draft FC-1 single-seater and two-seater for the Egyptian contract
from chinese
CNAC: Xiaolong on Pakistan to ensure the follow-up 50 contracts, L-15 Starting user export transactions; strive Raptors signed the contract ...
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1 Good grasp of key products in the international arms trade marketing, to ensure follow-up to Pakistan Xiaolong 50 contract, L-15 transaction start user exit; strive Raptors signed the contract to promote the single-seat and seat Xiaolong Egypt project contract; while we must vigorously develop the international military and civilian helicopter market.
2 Continue to strengthen the military and trade new product development efforts, focus on AMF Advanced Multirole Fighter, F-10 export-oriented, Xiaolong two-seater and other key project development and marketing.
Dopuna: 26 Jul 2011 20:35
Pakistan Xiaolong fighter air refueling systems will be fitted with C802
Posted 2011年07月26日10:14 Global Times
July 25, according to Russian military news network reported that the British "Air Force Magazine," July 2011 on an issue of up to 24-page article detailing China and Pakistan jointly developed the JF-17 "Lightning" / FC-1 "owl Dragon "fighter, especially the history of research and development, project progress, structural characteristics, although the apparent color of subjective tendencies and advertising, but without losing the fun. Russian readers may also cause some interest, because the "Fierce Dragon" superior performance, the price is not high, the attractiveness of the larger developing countries, export prospects.
"Air Force Magazine," that talking about the "Fierce Dragon" fighter project, can not ignore the fact that the Pakistan Air Force is involved in the development so far the only fighter. Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff of Sulaiman stressed that this is Pakistan's nuclear tests in 1998 were U.S. and European sanctions against the special circumstances of the decision.
” He said: "Sanctions and (using) the increase is the development of new aircraft, the main reason for replacing aging aircraft, and cooperation with China is the most sensible for us is the most economically favorable decision."
JF-17 fighter as a new generation of lightweight multi-function, in any weather conditions 24 hours a day fighting with. It uses the glass cockpit, with excellent ergonomics of the "hands on the bar" type flight control system can effectively reduce the pilot workload. “ "Fierce Dragon" maximum speed of 1.6 Mach, thrust-weight is relatively large, is an excellent fighter. As the Pakistan Air Force fighters after killing the target over the horizon do not have the ability, it has been possible to enhance and improve close air combat tactics, and reached a very high standard. According to unconfirmed information, in 2008, "Anatolian Eagle" exercise, the Pakistan Air Force F-16 aircraft results 3-0 win over Europe, "Typhoon" aircraft.
Pakistan in the design of JF-17 without forget the full advantage of this air combat techniques, and using the Chinese developed a very advanced SD-10A medium-range air to air missiles, the fourth generation after the aircraft has been equipped with anti-air BVR goals.
JF-17 can use the Chinese developed "Charlie-5E" short-range missiles and medium-range SD-10 air to air missiles, including the "Fierce Dragon" aircraft July 17, 2010 the first successful launch of "Charlie-5EII" missile, marking the entire aircraft project into a new and important phase.
Prior to the Pakistan Air Force in April 2010 the "high standard" exercise, the "Fierce Dragon" has been fully demonstrated their ability to attack successfully throwing 500 pounds and 2000 pounds-level aerial bombs, hitting the target for the training venue.
Russian media noted that in 2010 the "Fierce Dragon" fighter extravaganza Farnborough Air Show air show before, many people are still the "Fierce Dragon" also need a lot of time as a research and development of a conceptual product, not enough to enter the European fighter market leading products, but also have not tried with the European fighter "Typhoon", "Gripen", "gust", or the U.S. aviation industry product F-15, F-16 or F-22 competition, snatch international market.
As the "Fierce Dragon" the development side, Pakistan card Ratko Aviation Industry Group and China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation would want this product to occupy a larger market share, after all, this is a 21st century modern fighters, the price much lower than similar products in the West, the performance is no less, and is equipped with very advanced systems.
Pakistan believes that the "Fierce Dragon" to help the Near East, Middle East, Far East, Africa and Latin America to achieve their long-awaited air changes.
If necessary, the CMB can be also introduced two versions of the "Fierce Dragon", a number with a more affordable price, performance was no less of Chinese airborne radio equipment and weapons, a Western with a complex airborne radio equipment. In short, all by the client's budget and needs.Many countries now have the "Fierce Dragon" very interested, after all, the aircraft cost-effective for many developing countries is a good choice.
俄媒称，“枭龙”的研发历史可以追溯到上世纪80年代末。 Russian media said, "Xiaolong" R & D dates back to the late 1980s. 1989年美国以巴基斯坦研制核武器为由冻结71架F-16歼击机交付协议，同时禁止诺斯鲁普-格鲁曼公司协助中巴研制新一代歼击机“超-7”，该飞机是中国F-7歼击机的进一步发展型号。 In 1989 the grounds of the United States to Pakistan to develop nuclear weapons freeze 71 F-16 fighter delivery agreement, while prohibiting the Northrop - Grumman to help Pakistan develop a new generation fighter aircraft "over 7", the Chinese F-7 aircraft the further development of model fighter.
Since then Pakistan Air Force bitter experience, that as soon as possible to get rid of sanctions and endless blackmail the United States, decided to continue cooperation with China has independently developed light fighter.
1992 China and Pakistan signed the relevant agreement, agreed to three joint research project based fighter concept, the drafting of the new aircraft's performance and operational requirements, and create the basis for the development of the Palestinian National aviation industry, joint efforts to promote new products to third countries.
1995 agreed on the specific requirements of the new aircraft, the Pakistan Air Force fighters and China signed a memorandum of understanding to set up a new office responsible for project implementation.
1996 Pakistan Air Force "Super 7" fighter design is approved, two years after the Pakistani government signed a further agreement to implement the project-specific, the company decided to start with China as the production prototype to fly, code-named FC-1 "owl Long, "China to help train Pakistani Air Force pilots and engineers.
Early in the project, the Palestinian side only 50% of the overall workload in the Pakistan Air Force to get 150 aircraft, will be one hundred percent by the Pakistani aviation sector is responsible for new aircraft production.
But the United States and Europe in October 1999 because of India and Pakistan have conducted nuclear tests and the outbreak of armed conflict on bilateral sanctions, leading to "super 7" project in trouble again, Western companies involved in the project can not get the necessary export licenses, so that China and Pakistan is facing many new technical problems.
Pakistan Air Force then decided to use China-made system to be replaced, but the initial progress is not smooth.
In November 2000 Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff Ali - Mir important recommendations, the overall progress of the project that led to the slow flying airborne systems and separate R & D platform itself, for go hand in hand, hoping to end of the project overall R & D fighter, airborne radio-electronic equipment was to achieve a more advanced level. Ten years later proved that this decision is correct.
Russian media said the Pakistan Air Force after seizing every opportunity to actively study the ability to install a variety of aircraft equipment and systems. 2003 August 25, 2003 China to achieve a "super -7" fighter's first flight.
Pakistan Air Force said its "super -7" officially renamed the JF-17, the "Joint Fighter-17", intended to reflect the aircraft's Pakistani origin, the number "17" means it is more than the Pakistan army was the most advanced F-16 also advanced.
The first prototype flight in eight months after the April 9, 2004 test samples of the second frame machine PT-3 launch in Chengdu, the next day the Pakistan Air Force pilots flew the first flight.
The end of 2006, the Pakistan Air Force has been testing four prototypes, the first five have started ground testing.
PT-4 and PT-6 equipped with China's radio-electronic equipment, including PT-4 August 2009 delivery on the Palestinian side, for flight certification in Pakistan, which became the basis of the JF-17 sample.
After China re-design of JF-17 inlet, switch to non-separated Road supersonic inlet, the DSI using the most advanced technology to improve engine efficiency and reduce landing speed, reduced takeoff and landing roll distance, reducing the infrared radiation characteristics. This aircraft under adverse conditions of combat use is an important advantage, is the dream of Pakistan Air Force.
At that time the only use of foreign aircraft in the United States similar to the inlet of the fifth generation fighter F-35.
In addition to China 4 prototype test, the eight small-batch production of the "Fierce Dragon" all delivered in 2007-2008, the Palestinian side.
Use the first two transport aircraft delivered in February 2007, Kamla, after the successful assembly of Pakistan on March 2 in the aviation industry within the group completed its first flight, finishing on March 23 Pakistani flag, took part in the Pakistan National Day military parade . After the first production aircraft type "Fierce Dragon" (No. 07-101) also use a special pattern, painted in national colors of Brazil, and still in use.
February 18, 2010 Pakistan Air Force JF-17 fighter pilot squadron incorporated into the 26th Air Force, before April of that year with 12 "Fierce Dragon", including the first flight of production aircraft.
26 unit responsible for assessing the "Fierce Dragon" flight performance testing airborne radio electronic equipment and weapons systems, training fleet pilots, most of them flying from the 7th Brigade, has experience serving in the air defense forces, driving the "Phantom IIIEA "or F-16 fighter, is rich in airborne radar using skills.
Russian media said the April 11, 2011 JF-17 project is completed another important phase of work. Pakistan Air Force 26th Air Force rotations to Peshawar, began to equip the new JF-17, all models of the future will be "Fierce Dragon" test.
China and Pakistan prepared to "Fierce Dragon" throughout the service period of its five major modern improvements, priority is to install air refueling system, integrated infrared target acquisition and tracking system.
Pakistan Aviation Industry Group is now the "Phantom" fighter install air refueling system, in order to master new technologies, gain the experience necessary to carry out similar to the JF-17 conversion work.
Now the 26th Battalion priority for the new production of the "Fierce Dragon" fighter pilot training, but also for the Pakistani army is continuing significance of the airborne-ground weapons testing.
Now weapons testing and other experiments are being conducted simultaneously. In order to ensure that the aircraft has a high operational effectiveness, "Fierce Dragon" equipped with a large number of various types of weapons systems, including conventional weapons and high-precision weapons, and the complex radio-electronic equipment and precision navigation system.
In addition, the "Fierce Dragon" still in Chinese-made C-802 anti-ship missiles, the first phase of integration is expected to soon be tested.
Advanced airborne radio electronic equipment to ensure the "Fierce Dragon" battlefield survivability, with aerial refueling capability to stay in the air after longer, with the border areas in Pakistan to implement any desired location against the ability to more effectively protect national security.
Pakistan aviation industry a few years to consider a variety of "Fierce Dragon" airborne radar configuration, including the Pakistan Air Force in a very popular Italian Grifo radar, had been in "Phantom", F-7P, F-7PG aircraft. Pakistan must be specifically requested radar receiver is compatible with airborne weapons systems, to ensure that medium-range air to air missiles can be used. Although the aircraft was originally certified to debug and radio electronic equipment was used when the Grifo S radar, but the Pakistan Air Force or for the first eight small group of "Fierce Dragon" chose China's independently developed KLJ-7 radar.
This is a multi-standard Doppler radar, the main advantage is the compact, small size, search range, and advanced performance, high resolution, ideal for the "Fierce Dragon" fighter. JF-17 as the search target, the primary means to guide weapons, KLJ-7 radar, radio-electronic equipment by modern 1553/1760 interface and weapons systems integrated into a whole, and thus continue to enhance the performance of the aircraft have the potential to use both Chinese weapons, can use Western weapons, especially with China SD-10A air missile performance has increased significantly. In addition, the Pakistan Air Force is also considering using a similar medium-range missiles and Western airborne radio electronic equipment, to ensure that JF-17 become so frightened of enemy air defense platform.
Russian media said the first batch of 50 JF-17 aircraft, including eight in Chinese-made small batches, and the Palestinian side assembly 42 high-volume, full use of China airborne radio electronic equipment, plans to be delivered in early 2012 Pakistan Air Force. The second batch of 50 JF-17 procurement contract was May 19, 2011 signed. Pakistan still hoping to get Western airborne radio electronic equipment, because the JF-17's biggest advantage is that it's fully open, and never confined to a single configuration. In addition, Pakistan plans to gradually put national industries in the "Fierce Dragon" co-production projects in the proportion increased to 80%, including Kamla assembled in China KLJ-7 airborne radar.
Pakistan Air Force, a senior official said: "Two years ago I had the French said, if you do not help us, not to provide radio-electronic equipment, then we will let you believe that a few years the Chinese people can also create a similar device results they did. "The fact that the Pakistan Air Force will not want to get some equipment from one country to delay the" Fierce Dragon "fighter production, the Palestinian side on this issue is very real.
Now, China and Pakistan are still actively selling to the international market, JF-17, particularly the use of MiG -21, F-7, F-5, "Mirage III", "Phantom IV" of the country.
"Fierce Dragon" has caused a high level of interest in many countries, this is not surprising, as it advanced, the price is not high, in line with cost-effective standards for most developing countries is a good choice. (编译：书山) (Compiled: Shu-shan)
（编辑：SN049） (Edit: SN049)
Dopuna: 27 Jul 2011 13:14
Dopuna: 28 Jul 2011 9:01
Dopuna: 28 Jul 2011 9:03
New chinese SRAAM Charlie-5EII was launched succesfully on a JF-17 last week [PL5E-Ⅱ]
PL5E-Ⅱis an improved 3rd generation short-range IR air-to-air missile, which features good anti-jamming capability and all-aspect attack capability.
Dominance of PL-5EⅡ:
Good target detection performance
All-aspect attack
Anti-jamming capability
Helmet mounted sight (HMS) slaving
Sufficient overload capability
Dual-band multi-element IR seeker possesses a sound anti IR decoy capability；
Precise laser fuse provides a sound anti-interference capability；
Excellent maneuverability with a Max. overload up to 35 g；
HE fragmentation warhead provides a high kill efficiency；
Small size and light weight provide good carriage adaptability；
Lateral loading and launching on the wing-tip can be realized；
Fire-and-forget guarantees the high survivalability of the platform A/Cs.
Just a modernized copy of the 1960s K-13 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA-2_Atoll ). They should've just bought R-73, even the first version is much more potent than this one, not to mention the improved versions.
sd10= rejected by paf
sd10a = testing on jft = intial aim120
sdb= will be mostly used by jf17
Early models of the PL-2, PL-2A above and PL-2B below, were cloned Soviet K-13 / AA-2 Atoll derivatives.The Soviet R-13 was cloned by China as the PL-2, which later evolved into the PL-3 and PL-5 missiles. No less than four variants of the PL-5 are identified. The PL-5A was equivalent to the K-13R, but the program was cancelled during the 1980s. The PL-5B did not enter production until the 1980s, despite initial development starting two decades earlier. The PL-5C is an improved PL-5B widely used by PLA-AF and PLA-N units. The latest PL-5E is an attempt to outperform the AIM-9L/M series, using an all aspect seeker, AIM-9L style double delta canards, a 40 degree off boresight capability, and 40G manoeuvre capability. PL-5 variants are used on the J-7 Fishbed, J-8 Finback, FH-7 and Q-5 Fantan, J-7s and Q-5 having been widely exported in Asia.
[QUOTE=pshamim Refuelling system for Block-2 is confirmed
Dopuna: 05 Aug 2011 18:30
J-10A domestic prices close to $ 30 million, J-11B about 54 million, about 24 million A Flying Leopard. FC-1 take-away prices 1500-2000 Wan
Pakistan will be about 100 JF-17. After that batch, is expected to make large improvements, such as stealth modification, facelift AESA, IRST and other installation. The swash plat based AESA radar for JFT was ready before PMs visit to China. RCS of J-10B is less than 1m ˛, is a military aircraft in service in the RCS has the smallest models.
In fact, there are rumors that Pakistan has been involved in the development of J-10B. .2 j10b prototypes are flying and both Chinese and Pakistani teams are testing both the air frame and avionics.
Dopuna: 05 Aug 2011 18:41
4.5 generation fighters in paf in next 3 years..
jft block 1 = low tech
jft blk2 , f16 blk52 = medium tech
fc20= high tech
Dopuna: 05 Aug 2011 19:12
last May when Gilano met Wen Jiabao, surprisingly they discussed J-20s prospects, form and payment period.de. these aircrafts even if acquired by Pakistan will not be available until 2020 but discussion seem to have begun.
qoute , sir p.shamim
ANTIBODY ::
Its seems to be the most advanced variant of the PL-5 series.
Which makes it the most advanced of an outdated missile. That's like saying the T-55AM is the most advanced T-55...which doesn't matter because there have been 5 newer and better tanks in the meantime, all of which are already better than the most advanced of the old stuff.
Pakistan Air Force stationed in Chengdu, the "Fierce Dragon" the team leader for any
At 13:45 on July 29, 2011 Source: Guangming Wang phone to read news
Abstract print network to share recommended correction microblogging famous Mall
WASHINGTON Pakistan Air Force in the aircraft industry in Chengdu has to change in any group of experts, the transition. Quarter Xiaoguang, director of Chengdu, met with the outgoing head of the sixth and the new head of the SHAKIR ARSHAD Brigadier General Brigadier General. Brigadier General, said two very willing to cooperate with the Chengdu Institute for Sino-Pakistani friendship and the "Fierce Dragon" unremitting efforts to grow the project.
The past two years, "Fierce Dragon" project continue to achieve excellent results have attracted worldwide attention, the smooth progress of work according to plan. Xiaoguang quarter led by Brigadier General of the ARSHAD sixth Pakistani Air Force expert in this period made outstanding contributions to fully affirmed and said that Pakistan Air Force Institute of willingness to continue to provide better aviation weapons and equipment and technical support, and hope and SHAKIR Brigadier continue to uphold the friendship and pleasant cooperation.
Since 2000, Pakistan Air Force under the "Fierce Dragon" contract, to Chengdu, the presence of joint expert groups involved in the project's research and development. Group set up head of a person about every two years, head and members of the rotation.
Dopuna: 05 Aug 2011 22:54
Dopuna: 06 Aug 2011 7:19
Some sources have claimed thet Yang Weihuai, Chinese aircraft designer of JFC-1, J-10B, and the F-20 has been dividing his time between Chengdu and Kamra. Reason is open for speculation but seems to be that PAF may be far more involved than known.
Dopuna: 06 Aug 2011 19:45
Dopuna: 07 Aug 2011 2:52
Here is an explanation from Houshanghai:
pl5e2
actually， We can say that pl5e2 has been a new one .it is compact, small light and cheap. pl5e2 has increased a new Multi-Sensor IR Seeker. Maximum overloading is 40g maximum height is 21000m . The Tracking Range before firing is ±40°，The Tracking Range after firing is ±38°。 the angle of large off-boresight is close to MICA’s ±45° pl5e2 is very quick truning to target in the short range dogfight .its performance is better than AIM-9L/M
Meanwhile, the earth is still spinning and where I live it is neither 1978 nor 1982 anymore. That was 33-29 years ago, when the AIM-9L and later the AIM-9M and R-73 came out, the second of which is superior to the new PL5-EII in every aspect. Not to mention the R-73M and R-74M.
While China is still upgrading a Soviet missile from the late 50s/early60s which the Soviets (a country that in the meantime dissappeared 21 years ago) replaced in 1974 (37 years ago) and which's successor has already been replaced twice (and soon three times) since. Just put into perspective how far exactly they are lagging behind.
All due respect for your enthusiasm, but this is hardly something to write home about. If Pakistan is wise, they would just buy R-73Ms for their JF-17 and have 100 times the capability.
