Izbor novog visenamenskog aviona za Srpsko Vazduhoplovstvo

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zixo ::Ma hajde uozbilji se. Kakva borbena iskustva? Sa angolskim MiG-21 i 23 koje su leteli Kubanci?

Znaci 20 godisnji rat u kome su se vodile prilicno velike konvencionalne bitke (avijacija, OMJ, PVO) je macji kasalj za tebe ?

I na sta su Kubanci trebali da lete u to vreme ?


Evo nesto iz 1988...

Citat:

Between October 1987 and June 1988, in the fiercest conventional battles on African soil since Erwin Rommel was defeated at El Amien, the South African Defence Forces (SADF) fought pitched tank and artillery battles with the Angolan army (FAPLA) and its Cuban supporters at Cuito Cuanavale.

This small base located in southeastern Angola became important in the military history of Africa, for there the South African army, supposedly the best on the continent, was trapped with its tanks and artillery and held down more than 300 miles from its bases in Namibia. Failing to take Cuito Cuanavale with over 9000 soldiers, even after announcing that it had done so, losing air superiority, and faced with mutinies among black troops and a high casualty rate among whites, the South Africans reached such a desperate situation that President Botha had to fly to the war zone when the operational command of the SADF broke down.

The military defeat of the South Africans in Angola
Horace Campbell

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The Cubans already have significant advantages over the South Africans in the Angolan-Namibian border region. In keeping with Soviet doctrine, the Cubans have moved a balanced combat force into the area. They have established forward bomber and fighter bases to support their ground forces near the frontier at Cahama, Xangongo and Mupa. This includes the most advanced array of surveillance, fire-control radar and antiaircraft missile defenses on the African continent, South African and American officials say. MIG vs. Cheetah

The Cubans also fly advanced MIG-23 fighters, which many experts say will outperform South Africa's top fighter plane, an updated version of the French Mirage F-1 called the Cheetah. South African Air Force officers say they are confident that the Cheetah and their flying skills are more than a match for the MIG's, but concede they cannot afford to lose many planes.

On the ground, the Cubans have modern Soviet tanks, armored personnel carriers, heavy artillery, BM-21 rocket launchers and Hind attack helicopters to support their troops.

The South Africans also have well-equipped armored and mechanized forces. Their main battle tank is the Olifant, a South African modification of Britain's Centurion tank. They also have a 155-millimeter gun that in the eyes of most artillery experts is the best gun in any army. The South Africans are weak, however, in antiaircraft and antitank defenses, and they have no attack helicopters.

[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]



Dopuna: 05 Dec 2008 12:53

@Sebab
Citat:ako su rusi doterali r-77, a sigurno jesu, onda je prednost rusa ocigledna, jer r-darter nema data link i upola manji domet. ako r-darter nije bila na cheetah, onda nije ni moglo doci do bvr borbe, odnosno, rusi nisu ni mogli da izgube.

Nazalost ne znam koje su rakete koriscene (simulirane)



leonard ::@Taso
skoro se pokrenula neka prica oko Su-30, 34 i 35 u nekoj relaciji sa australijom.
Kako ne znam Ruski nisam bio u stanju da udjem u trag. Medjutim, licno sam sam skeptik i pored toga sto sam ubedjenda bi ga Australija rado usvojila.

Proizvodnja 2 vrlo srodna aviona.


To je bilo u vezi kompjuterske simulacije u kome su Sukhoi pobedili F-35....mediji i protivnici F-35 (kojih ovde ima na pretek) su to onda objavili na sva zvona

Australia's fighter jets 'clubbed' by Russians
[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]


ovde ima jos nesto o tome
[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]

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Bilo je zabavno i vrlo interesantno citati Australijske analize Su-27 i njegovih derivata, kao i analize o F-35.

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leonard ::Bilo je zabavno i vrlo interesantno citati Australijske analize Su-27 i njegovih derivata, kao i analize o F-35.

Ma Karlo Kop ima nesto protiv F-35 ali zato obozava F-111.

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verovatno bi pre voleo da imaju f22, pa zato f35 ne valja.

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Sebab cudi me sto ti postavljas ovo pitanje.

F-22 i 35 nude Australiji od svega potrebnog samo stelt. F-22 ne moze nositi svo naoruzanje koje bi oni koristili u svom RV. Tako da ako zele delimicno zadovoljiti potrebe trebaju uzeti oba.

E sad Su 34 i 35 zadovljavaju sve potrebe Australije, a imaju solidne stelt karkteristike. Jos kad se uzme u obzir da komsije nemaju stelt avion onda je sve receno.

Australija je velika zemlja koja je najgusce naseljena na istoku, a treba kontrolisati celu obalu. Mislim da je sve receno.

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Citat:Znaci 20 godisnji rat u kome su se vodile prilicno velike konvencionalne bitke (avijacija, OMJ, PVO) je macji kasalj za tebe ?

U tom ratu su se borili Mirage III i F1 protiv MiG-21 i 23. A Rusi su dosli sa MiG-29 i Su-27. Ne moze se porediti.

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leonard ::Sebab cudi me sto ti postavljas ovo pitanje.

F-22 i 35 nude Australiji od svega potrebnog samo stelt. F-22 ne moze nositi svo naoruzanje koje bi oni koristili u svom RV. Tako da ako zele delimicno zadovoljiti potrebe trebaju uzeti oba.

E sad Su 34 i 35 zadovljavaju sve potrebe Australije, a imaju solidne stelt karkteristike. Jos kad se uzme u obzir da komsije nemaju stelt avion onda je sve receno.

Australija je velika zemlja koja je najgusce naseljena na istoku, a treba kontrolisati celu obalu. Mislim da je sve receno.


Glavni problem sa F-35 je neka protivbrodska raketa. Valjda je bilo receno da moze da stane u F-35 ali kako se F-35 zavrsava sve su veci izgledi da nemoze. A Australiji pre svega treba avion za kontrolu vodenih povrsina.

Sto se tice F-22 ne vidim sta bi Australija postigla kupovinom istog. U pitanju je prvo Lovac pa sve onda drugo.

Licno mislim da je F-35 vrlo interesantan i da nije bilo insistiranja na unifikaciji vrlo verovatno da bi postojale i bolje lovacke verzije (npr. sa 2D izduvnikom za USAF i USN)

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Uloguj se preko Facebooka da bi video sliku:

zixo ::U tom ratu su se borili Mirage III i F1 protiv MiG-21 i 23. A Rusi su dosli sa MiG-29 i Su-27. Ne moze se porediti.

Pokusao sam da nadjem nesto vise o ovoj vezbi ali ne mogu da nadjem originalni clanak, ali nasao sam na nesto materijala koji sam sakupio bog zna gde jos davne 2000/2001 u kome se govori da su se Juzno Afrikanci pokazali dobri u BVR borbi tokom vezbe......rezultat je bio otprilike neresen u BVR borbi.

I jos nesto...

Juzno Africki piloti iz tog perioda (aparthejd) se smatraju za jedni od najboljih u svetu...agresivni, odlicno obuceni i sa ratnim iskustvom.

Mig-21 and Mig-23 su bili dostojni protivnici i J. Africko RV je imalo dosta problema sa njima...jedan primer:


Mirage F1 AZ (No:206) crashed near home base, after being hit by a R-60 fired from a Mig-23ML



Posle vezbe, Rusi i J. Afrikanci su zapoceli jedan zanimljiv projekat za opremanje Miraza F1 i Cheetah sa posebno modifikovanom verzijom Ruskog motora RD-33 nazvanim SMR-95....ali je posto su sankcije protiv Juzne Afrike ukinute a vojni budzet smanjen nije se islo na ovakvu modernizaciju.


Citat:Miraz F1 sa motorom SMR-95 i raketama R-73



SYSTEM ENGINEERING MANAGEMENT

The lead role that Aerosud played in the re-engining of the Mirage F1 and Mirage III-derived Cheetah aircraft with a variant of the Russian Klimov RD33 engine used in the Mig 29 Fighter has brought the company substantial International recognition. Aerosud was assigned overall system responsibility for this program, and also conducted the detailed design of all airframe and airborne systems modifications, whilst its Russian partners were responsible for the redesign of the engine and the design of a new accessory gearbox. Both the F1 and Cheetah prototypes were successfully flight tested and performed exceptionally well. The " Super Mirage F1" technology demonstrater was displayed and successfully demonstrated at the MAKS airshow in Moscow during August 2001.

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The idea behind the SAAF "Super Mirage" and the Avionics Demonstrator was the SAAF requirement for a new fighter. Due to sanctions, the SAAF started this project with Russia. It is not exactly the same RD-33 engine, but a modification of this engine which is called the SMR-95.

Aerosud have lengthened the engine and have also used a new gearbox.

The airframe accessory drive gearboxes are different for the Cheetah and the F1 and are therefore designed to be part of the airframe. The main drawback of the Cheetah is the fuel guzzling ATAR 9K-50. Again due to sanctions, the J-79 engine could not be supplied as part of the "Kfir/Cheetah" package. The SMR-95 was sought as an alternative. Being 350kg lighter than the ATAR and offering 10% more thrust, whilst consuming less fuel. The Avionics Demonstrator brought the F1 in line with the Cheetah. This part of the project was used on Spain's F1's. The changes in performance was far greater for the Cheetah, than for the F1. For example the take-off mass for the F1 improved by one ton, but for the Cheetah this was by 2,6 tons!

The Arms Embargo against SA came to a close and due to budget cuts the SAAF decided to opt for a single fighter type.

The Mirage F1 was withdrawn from service and modifications were developed for improving the performance of the ATAR 9K-50, which was deemed suitable as an alternative until the Gripen becomes operational. Thus the Super Mirage project came to a close. Although this package is still offered to anyone wishing to purchase the SAAF Mirages.

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Uporedi broj oborenih aviona na obe strane pa ces videti superiornost SAAF. JAR je bio u tehnoloskoj prednosti a da su kojim slucajem Anglolci i Kubanci imali MiG-29 i Su-27 to bi vec bila druga prica.

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zixo ::Uporedi broj oborenih aviona na obe strane pa ces videti superiornost SAAF. JAR je bio u tehnoloskoj prednosti a da su kojim slucajem Anglolci i Kubanci imali MiG-29 i Su-27 to bi vec bila druga prica.

Ja bih rekao da su imali bolje obucene-iskusne pilote....tehnoloska prednost u period od 1986-88 je bila minimalna