Srednjovekovni Srpski vojnici

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Srednjovekovni Srpski vojnici

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Хехе, грешиш. Било је сабљи и пре Турака.. Wink

Фреска из цркве у Пећи


Година је 1316., вероватно их је било и раније.
У Дубровнику се први пут помиње сабља 1363., мада они су били под већим утицајем Запада.

Dopuna: 05 Avg 2008 0:23

Kibo ::Hvala na odgovoru vazduhoplovac. Jos nesto, neki tvrde da su Vizantijci u srednjem veku kada su se susreli sa osmanlijskom sabljom uvideli prednost sablje naspram macu pa su zbog toga koristili sablje. E sad ti isti ljudi tvrde, posto smo mi dosta preuzeli od Vizantijske kulture, vere pa idu dotle da su verovatno i te sablje tako dosle do srpskih vitezova odnosno vojnika.

Da li je to tacno, mislim na Vizantiju i kolika je mogucnost da su stvarno i Srbi posto su se susretali sa Turcima videli prednost u sablji pa su mozda ne svi ali pojedini bili njome naoruzani.

Ja u to ne mogu nikako da verujem, razlog je jednostavan. Pa dosta su se krstasi susretali sa Saracenima ali nikako nisam video da su zbog toga poceli da koriste sablje.


Пази, многи ту греше, и везују све ''источњачко'' и ''оријентално'' за Турке. Много тога што везујемо за њих би могло да се припише Византији. Слободно се може рећи да су Турци управо Турци због Византије, ако ме разумете, хехе...

Што се тиче другог дела твоје поруке, опет многи греше што Турке, и сваки контакт са њима повезују са периодом после Косовске битке. Византијци су користили доста Турских и Татарских трупа у свом ратовању. Милутин је доста ратовао са Татарима крајем 13. века.
Не могу сад да ископам, а ни да се сетим, где сам прочитао. Милутин је имао неких 5000 хиљада Татарских плаћеника, које је разоружао и покушао да привикне на сељачки живот, хехе, касније су се побунили. Ту је сигурно могло да остане пар хиљада сабљи.
Видех на претходним страницама да је неко поменуо ''Свете ратнике''. Симпатична књига, послужила је као темељ за СВЕБОР. Мада не бих је уврстио у неко озбиљније штиво, више онако за пред спавање. Елем, ту се помињу неки Шпански плаћеници, мислим исто код Милутина. Хоћу да кажем, није то баш био тако мрачан период.



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A i ziva je istina da smo imali komandire koji su sebe nazivali "tisucnicima"!



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До реформе војске... Very Happy

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  • Gde živiš: gde i mnogi Srbi pre mene

Vizantijci su doveli Turke u Evropu jer su ih upotrebljavali protiv pobunjenih slovenskih naroda. I to je verovatno bilo jos i pre 13. veka, ali to je samo moja pretpostavka mislim da su dolazili jos pre 13. veka. Podaci o koristenju Turaka od strane Vizantijaca se mogu naci i u Istoriji Srba.

Sto se tice Tatara i kralja Milutina, nista me ne bih zacudilo ali se nesto ne secam da sam o tome citao. Sto se tice podatka oko spanskih placenika, mislim da se oni vise vezuju za cara Stefana Dusana Silnog, nego meni se cini da je to bilo jos dok je vladao njegov otac Stefan Decanski kada su potukli Bugare do nogu. Ne vredi, ja datume i imena ne pamtim bas nesto pa se ne mogu setiti nikako gde je bila i kada ta bitka. Morao bih sada da otvaram Istoriju Srba a dok se tamo pronadje, e to ce potrajati.

Meni je bitna informacija o nacinu i uopste o koriscenju sablje u srpskoj vojsci u srednjem veku.

Inace, srednji vek nikako nije mracan period za srpski narod vec naprotiv to je bilo doba u kojem smo narocito pod Carom Stefanom Dusanom Silnim bili jedna od najvecih sila u Evropi.

Problem pocinje sa razbijanjem srpskog carstva a Njegos je to veoma lepo napisao u Gorskom vijencu, Bog se dragi na Srbe razgali ....

P.S. Sto se tice freski, da ne zaboravimo da je verovatno dosta zavisilo i od slikara kako ce i sa kojim oruzjem biti predstavljen neko na samim freskama i naravno tu postoji jak vizantijski uticaj kao i u celoj srpskoj srednjovekovnoj kulturi.

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Sto se tice sablji i maceva ja imam jednu svoju teoriju oko toga.

Naime te sablje koje su koristene kod nas i pre dolaska Turaka su sigurno pogresno protumacene.To su najverovatnije bili Falchioni i Messeri,evropska oruzja nastala u 11. veku na podrucjima Francuske,Italije i Nemacke.Verovatno su u Srbiju dospeli kada i Sasi rudari i Nemacki i Katalonski,Spanski placenici.

Ta oruzja su nastala pod uticajem Mongolskih i tatarskih maceva koji su u Evropu stigli mongolskim najezdama.Verovatno se i kod nas zadrzao neki broj mongolskih maceva,a moguce je da se i jedan deo ovde nasao preko Madjarske,jer su Ugari bili poznati konjanici i imali su opremu slicnu Tatarima,pa tako i maceve kao oni.

Jos jedan izvor jednoseklog oruzja koje smo koristili se moze naci preko Avara sa kojima smo dolazili u kontakt u 9. veku i ranije.U ratovanju protiv Avara verovatno je i zarobljen odredjen broj njihovih "sablji" koje je narod (moguce) kasnije i sam proizvodio.

Prema tome,velika verovatnoca je da su "sablje" odnosno jednosekli macevi u Srbiju stigli sa severa a ne sa juga,iako kasnijim kontaktom sa Turcima prisvajamo i njihova oruzja.

Odgovorio bih i ranije,ali sam o Falchionu postavio pitanje u "Nagradnom Prisustvu" pa da se ne bih ispalio ovde.

Evo i nekih slika:

Falchion





Messer








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mac vs. sablja

mac je univerzalno hladno oruzje, za bod i secenje, dok je sablja pre svega namenjena za secenje. i mac i sablja su korisceni i na istoku i zapadu i na dalekom istoku. logika je prosta - mac, kao prav, pogodniji je za probijanje oklopa (jedino se tesko, ili nikako nije mogao probiti puni oklop, osim na spojevima gde je bila pancirna kosulja - od okaca), dok je sablja bolja za secenje, za dejstvo protiv neoklopljenog ili slabo oklopljenog protivnika. srazmerno broju takvih vojnika, koristila se i sablja, tj. mac. izbacivanjem oklopa, kao posledica pojave vatrenog oruzja, sablja je preuzela primat.

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Vec neko vreme se spremam da malo dodam ovoj temi i eto...
Pitanje je bilo: Srpski srednjevekovni vojnici. Pomalo neprecizno jer je srednji vek u Srbiji (vredan pomena Very Happy ) trajao dvestotinak godina tokom kojih se podosta menjao izgled tj. oruzje i oprema vojnika. Bilo je tu pitanja i o artiljeriji i o sabljama. Evo prvo slicica (Sve su iz Osprey-eve serije Men at Arms i sve su rekonstrukcije na osnovu artefakata):

(Dodatna objasnjenja slika sam copy pasteovao i mrzelo me da prevodim ali mislim da ce biti razumljiva vecini.)
Na prvoj slici:
1: Byzantine Palace Guard (prvi s leva), late XIIth century: Byzantine troops of the early Palaeolog period seem to have revived some of the lost splendour of earlier centuries. Though basically equipped like con¬temporary European knights, their arms and armour also betrayed eastern influence. This man wears a chapel-de-fer war-hat, and extensive mail under a thickly padded gambeson. Even his shield is similar to those seen in Italy and the Crusader States, but while separate mail mittens would soon also be adopted in Italy his curved sabre is distinctly Turkish. (Sources: helmet from Peschki, Ukrainian 1100-1250, Hermitage Mus., Leningrad; Psalter, Byzantine i3th C, Benaki Mus. no. 34/3, Athens; St. Mercurius wall painting, Byzantine c. 1295, in situ Sv. Klimenta, Ohrid, Yugoslavia; wall paint¬ings, Bulgarian c. 1259, in situ Boyana Church, Sofia; Arsenal Bible from Acre, 1275—1290, Bib. Arsenal Ms. 5211, Paris.)

2: Byzantine 'murtartoi' archer, late 13th century Documentary sources confirm the importance of archers in Palaeolog armies, but they rarely appear in realistic form in art. A number of warriors are, however, shown in body armour which could represent coats-of-plates comparable to those appearing in western Europe. This man wears such armour, as well as the tall one-piece brimmed helmet, that was becoming more common in Byzantine illustration. His archery equipment naturally reflected that of neighbouring Turks and Mongols. (Sources: lamellar or scale cuirass from Kitaev, Ukrainian 12th-13th C, whereabouts unknown; arrowheads from Ras castle, Serbian I2th-i3th C, Milit. Mus., Belgrade; History of Alexander, Byzantine early i4th C, Lib. of San Giorgio di Greci, Venice; wall paintings, Byzantine (-.1265, in situ Sopocani Monastery, Yugoslavia.)
3. Serbian heavy infantryman, mid 13th century: Serbia and the western Balkans were already differing from the eastern Balkans by the 13th century. While the eastern regions were under increasing Turkish and Mongol influence Serbia was closer to Italy and southern Germany from whence so many mercenaries were recruited. Nevertheless, this man does carry a typically Balkan knobbed mace, and wears a sleeveless mail jerkin over a mail hauberk. His thickly padded coif illustrates an early phase of the Balkan pre¬occupation with protection for the throat, which might reflect the importance of archery in Balkan warfare. (Sources: i3th C helmet, Nat. Mus., Budapest; iron and bronze maces from Biskupija & Ras castle, Mus. of Croat Archaeol. & Milit. Mus. Belgrade; Guards at Holy Sepulchre, Serbian wall painting 1230-37, in situ Milesevo Monastery, Yugoslavia; Bulgarian wall painting, c. 1259, in situ Boyana Church, Sofia; Icon of St. George i3th C, Byzant. Mus. no. 89, Athens.)
4: Knight of Frankish Greece(u pozadini s loncem na glavi Very Happy ), late 13th century: The arms and armour of the Crusader States in Greece showed considerable Byzantine influence. This is particularly apparent in the hardened leather greaves worn by this figure. His coat-of-arms also indicates that his family stemmed from the Crusader States in Syria. (Sources: seals of the Latin Emperors, Bib. Nat., Paris; tomb-slabs of Sofia, late i3th C, Famagusta, Cyprus; donor figure, Icon of St. Nicholas, c. 1300, Makarios Foundation, Cyprus.


Posto smo mi i tada bili:,,istok na zapadu i zapad na istoku" i u kulturnom i u vojnom smislu primali smo uticaje sa svih strana, postavicu i slike ratnika okolnih naroda izmedju kojih je postojao uzajamni uticaj. Objasnjenja za gornju sliku: Hungarian knight, 1250-75 This knight has been given the arms of Bistrita in Transylvania and his equipment reflects the very strong German influence seen in Hungarian arms and armour at this time. His helmet, an early form of Great Helm, is covered by a padded cap supporting a light leather crest. Over his mail he wears an early coat-of-plates laced at the back. By his side lies a banner bearing the double-armed Cross of Hungary. (Sources: Slovak sword, i3th C, Nat. Mus. Martin, Czechoslovakia; Hungarian banner, 13th-14th C, Hist. Mus., Bern; design on belt buckle, Hungary i3th C, Nat. Mus. Budapest; Shrine of Charlemagne silver reliquary, German early 13th C, Aachen Cathedral, West Germany; St.
Maurice statue, German c. 1250, Cathedral Mus., Magdeburg, East Germany; Guards at Holy Sepulchre, carvings, Constance Cath., West Germany.)
2: Cuman warrior, mid-13th century The Cuman tribes who settled in Hungary provided the king with his most loyal troops. Their equipment clearly showed their recent origins on the Eurasian steppes, but their physical appearance was certainly unlike that of most other steppe dwellers. The Cumans' characteristic blonde hair and blue eyes gave them their name in Russian and German, both of which meant 'yellow'. The mail shirt, and very advanced iron shoulder-protecting spaulders worn by this man would normally have been hidden beneath a kaftan-like coat of typical Turkish cut. The long straight quillons of his sabre also show European influence. (Sources: 'Kun' sabre, I2th-i3th C, Milit. Mus., Budapest; Cuman helmet, mail, sword-belt, spear, arrow-heads & riding equipment, i3th C, Nat. Mus. Budapest; Peceneg shoulder armour, i3th C, Deri Mus., Debrecen; Ladislas Legend Slovakian wall painting, c. 1300, in situ church, Velka Lomnica, Czechoslo¬vakia; Peceneg balbal funerary statues from Dnepr region, whereabouts unknown.)
3:Croatian light cavalryman, early 13th century The warriors of Croatia were even more western in style than those of Serbia. The main source of military fashion seems to have been northern Italy but the men of isolated mountainous regions were naturally poorly equipped and behind the times. This man's face-covering mail ventail may again reflect the importance of archery, while his shield decoration is probably based on tribal emblems rather than proper heraldry. (Sources: spearhead from river Cetina, Archaeol. Mus. Split, Yugo¬slavia; wall-painting, early i3th C, in situ Crypt of Massenzio, Basilica, Aquileia, Italy; carved re¬cumbent warrior beneath altar, late 12th—early 13th C, in situ Modena Cathedral, Italy.)



Objasnjenja: (Prvi s desna) Serbian infantry, mid-14th century This man is in almost all aspects identical to the heavy infantry of Italy. His separate mail-covered gauntlets may, in fact, have been a Byzantine and Balkan fashion that had spread to Italy early in the 14th century. Only his massive splinted gorget neck and shoulder protection is different. Such pieces of armour appear quite suddenly in 14th-century Balkan art, and though they are sometimes worn by infidel or alien figures in Italian illustrations they are otherwise rarely seen anywhere else except 14th century Spain. A connection may be possible via the mercenary Catalan Grand Company and Spanish-ruled southern Italy, but it is not known in what direction such hypothetical influence flowed. (Sources: helmet, perhaps of German origin, Milit. Mus., Belgrade; warrior saints, Serbian wall-paintings, 1333—1371, in situ Chapel of St. Nichola Sopocani Monast., Church Psaca, Monastery Church Decani, Church Lesnovo, Yugoslavia; Pride, carved capital, early i4th C, in situ Doge's Palace, Venice; St. George, early i4th C, wall-painting, in situ Church of Panaghia Kera, Kritsa, Crete; Hungarian manuscript, 1325-50, Pierpont Morgan Lib. M.360-11, New York.)
(sredina) Bulgarian pronoia cavalryman, mid-late 14th century The contrast between this warrior and the Serbian infantryman highlights the differing military traditions of the eastern and western Balkans. He is not only very similar to a late Byzantine warrior but his equipment and costume both show considerable Turkish or Mongol influence. This is particularly apparent in his long coat, his reliance on lamellar armour, and the bells on his spear-shaft. The collection of maces may be captured symbols of rank. (Sources: helmet from Khalkhis, Ottoman or late Byzantine, Ethnolog. Mus., Athens; maces from Stara Zagora region, I3th-i4th C, Kazanlik Mus., Bulgaria; Manasses Chronicle, Bulgarian 1344-5, Vat. Lib. Cod. Slav 2, Rome; Psalter, Bulgarian or Serbian £-.1370, Bavarian State Lib. Cod. Slav 4, Munich; wall-painting, c. 1355, in situ Zemen Monastery, Bulagaria; warrior saint Ser¬bian wall-painting, c. 1307, in situ Ch. of Our Lady of Leviska, Prizren.)
Charles Thopia(U nasoj literaturi: Karlo Topija), Albania, mid-14th century Although no picture survives of Charles Thopia, lord of Kruja and Petrala, a fine carved relief does illustrate his coat-of-arms and crest. Here his tunic, which is remarkably similar to early Ottoman court costume, is taken from a similarly-dated painting of
Peter Brajan, the Jupan or governor of a neighbouring region of Bosnia. Like the Serbian infantryman he is protected by a brimmed helmet and an even more massive gorget or bevor. (Sources: bronze-covered lead mace from Luk, Archaeol. Mus., Split; bas-relief showing armourial bearing of Charles Thopia, in situ Church of St. John Vladimir, Elbasan, Albania; Peter Brajan, Serbian wall-painting £.1335, in situ Church Karan, Yugoslavia; warrior saint wall-painting 1338—50, in situ Monastery Church, Decani, Yugoslavia; Loyal Address from City of Prato to King Robert of Naples, 1335-40, British Lib. Ms. E. IX, London; barbarian warrior in St. Martin renouncing the sword, wall-painting by Simone Martini, c. 1317, in situ Montefiore Chapel, Lower Church of St. Francis, Assisi.)


Objasnjenja: 1. Light cavalryman of Cuman origin,The evidence is contradictory as to the degree of Westernisation seen among Hungarian Cumans in the 14th century. Perhaps it differed from tribe to tribe. This man, while still relatively lightly armoured, merely uses less of the same armour as that worn by feudal horsemen. The only distin¬guishing features are the hat worn over his bascinet, the open-fronted mail aventail of the latter, and his light spear and sword. He would also ride with a slightly bent leg. 'Sources: spearheads, early-mid 14th C, Danubian Mus. Komarno, Czechoslo¬vakia; Hungarian Illuminated Chronicle c. 1360, Nat. Szech. Lib., Budapest; Ladislas Legend wall-painting. Slovak (-.1370, in situ Evang. Church, Rimavska Bana: Ladislas Legend wall-painting, Slovak c. 1300, in situ Church, Velka Lomnica; Kalmuk horseman sketch by Pisanello, mid-15th C, Louvre. Cod. Yallardi 2325, Paris.)
2. Albanian tribal warrior, mid-14th century Albanians are frequently illustrated because of their military service in Italy but the pictures are stereotyped and perhaps unreliable. Written descriptions confirm, however, that they fought as archers both on foot and horseback, and imported much of their equipment from Italy. This man wears a heavy padded coat or gambeson of Italian cut, while his weaponry is based on a mysterious drawing in Oxford which probably shows a Balkan foot soldier. (Sources: Bohemian or Venetian drawing, 1350—60, Christ Church College Lib., Oxford; Orientals, wall-painting, (-.1340, in situ Avio Castle, Italy; Albanian stradioti at battle of Fornovo, French drawing, (-.1500, Nat. Gall, of Art, Washington.)

3. Hungarian feudal cavalry, 1350-75 This man bears the arms of Moldavia and Hungary on his shield and his armour is largely in Italian style. The only 'exotic' element is the decorative plume, probably of gilded leather, attached to his visored bascinet. This feature appears in many Hungarian sources and could be a residual Byzantine or Balkan fashion. Over a mail hauberk he wears a coat-of-plates. His arms are protected by splinted rerebraces outside the mail and splinted vambraces beneath the mail while on his legs he has hardened leather greaves. (Sources: St. George statue, c. 1373, in situ Hradschin, Prague; Hungarian Illuminated Chronicle, (7.1360, Nat. Szech. Lib., Budapest; bridle, i4th C, Nat. Mus., Budapest; Ladislas Legend, Slovak c. 1370, in situ Evang. Church, Rimavska Bana, Czechoslovakia.)


Objasnjenja: 1. Hunyadi Janos(U nasim pesmama Sibinjanin Janko),
c .1440

Here the great Hungarian leader against the Ottomans is fully armoured in the latest style of Milanese plate-armour, including a great bascinet. Only his continued use of a typical Hungarian shield (bearing the Hunyadi arms), as well as the single edged kesek small-sword on his right hip, set him apart from the heavy cavalry of Italy or Germany. (Sources: effigy of the Lord Chamberlain Stibor, Hungarian c. 1430, Budapest History Museum; armour from the Sanctuary of Madonna delle Grazie, i5th C, Castle Museum, Mantua; kelet swords, Nat. Mus., Budapest.)
2. Bosnian light cavalryman, mid-15th century The importance of light cavalry apparently increased in many areas in response to the staggering success of Ottoman light horsemen. In the 15th century their equipment still consisted of standard European arms, though worn in smaller quantities. This man has a locally decorated, Italian-made bascinet, a velvet covered brigandine to protect his body, and knee-covering poleyns worn without other leg harness. His sword has the characteristic Bosnian or Dalmatian sciavona hilt. (Sources: Helmet of Skanderbeg, Kunsthistorische Mus., Vienna: Bogomil tomb from Donja Zgosca, 1400-75, Archaeol. Mus., Sarajevo; wall-paintings, 15th C, in situ church Beram, Istria, Yugoslavia.)
3. Byzantine senior officer, early 15th century Here an envoy has been dressed in Byzantine court costume. This is remarkably well recorded in Italian as well as Byzantine art as a result of embassies sent to Europe by the last Byzantine Emperors. It already shows Ottoman influence, though it should be remembered that Ottoman ceremonial costume might also have been under Byzantine influence. This officer's weaponry is, however, almost totally Turkish. (Sources: sketches of Byzantine envoys by Pisanello, 1438, Art Institute, Chicago; Medal of John VIII Pala-eologus by Pisanello, British Mus., London; Theodore Metochitee, mosaic c. 1310, in situ Kariya Camii, Istanbul; High Admiral Apocaucos in Manus¬cript of Hippocrates, c. 1342, Bib. Nat. Ms. Gr. 2144, Paris).
4. Greek infantry archer, late 15th century While the last Byzantine elite apparently adopted many Ottoman fashions, the ordinary people of Greece and the Balkans wore simple clothes similar to those of other Mediterranean peasants. Common soldiers appear only rarely in the background of illustrated sources but these suggest that mail was still widely worn, that bows were a favoured weapon, and that headgear was similar to that worn in Hungary. (Sources: Fall of Constantinople, early i6th C wall-painting, in situ Moldovita Monastery, Moldavia; late 15th—early i6th C wall-painting, in situ Sucevita Monastery, Moldavia.)


Objasnjenja: l: Serbian auxiliary, 14th century
The frescoes of c. 1309-14 on which this figure is based demonstrate that 14th century Serbian equip¬ment, like 14th century Bulgarian, differed little from that of Byzantium, though the Serbs, whilst making some use of the triangular shield by then preferred in the Empire, continued to favour the almond-shaped variety. Their preferred weapon combination appears to have been lance (still often wielded overarm), sword, mace and composite bow. The fact that Serbian armoured cavalry of the 13th and 14th centuries were prepared to fight as horse-archers is confirmed bv Kantakouzenos' military
memoirs and pictures in Serbian manuscripts. Cer¬tainly the Serbs in the Nicaean army at the Battle of Pelagonia in 1259 were horse-archers.
2: Bulgarian auxiliary, c. 1345
Pictorial sources demonstrate that the similarity be¬tween Bulgarian and Byzantine equipment persisted until Bulgaria fell to the Ottoman Turks at the end of the 14th century. Bulgarian costume, however, re¬mained distinctly Balkan. The source for this figure is the Manasses Codex made for Tsar Ivan Alexander (1331—65), the illustrations of which indicate that the long gown often concealed light body-armour (Bul¬garian mail or lamellar corselets often reaching only to the waist or hips). All Bulgarian cavalrymen were customarily armed with a composite bow, though their heavy cavalry at least also carried a lance.
3: Serbian knight, 15th century
Under constant pressure from the Ottomans throughout the second half of the 14th century, Serbia began to import a growing volume of its arms from the West, in particular from Venice and Lombardy. By the 15th century better-equipped Serbs had become indistinguishable from their Italian counterparts, except in retaining a shield (probably in response to the Ottomans' dependence on archery). Ironically contingents of Serbian heavy cavalry consequently appeared in most Ottoman field armies during the first half of the 15th century, becoming famous for the effectiveness of their close-order charge Very Happy . A 1,500-strong Serbian contingent even attended the siege of Constantinople in 1453.

Posto smo oruzje zapadnog porekla uglavnom kupovali u Veneciji i severnoj Italiji. (Postoje sacuvani podaci o tme da je Car Dusan je jednom prilikom kupio 600 kompleta oklopa u Italiji.) okacicu slike italijanskih ratnika toga doba:





O topovima i sabljama za neki dan. NADAM SE DA NISAM SMORIO SA ENGLESKIM I EPSKOM DUZINOM POSTA. Very Happy

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Sablja je tipično konjičko oružje, i sa primatom koji je konjica sve više imala u srpskoj vojsci i sablja je polako postajala preovladjujuće oružje, bez obzira na poreklo te sablje (pitanje oklopa utiče, ali pešadija uglavnom nije bila teško oklopljena ako pod time ne smatramo verižnjače-pancirne košulje, neka neko proba da istrči pun kilometar sa punim gvozdenim oklopom a kamoli da se bori više sati, konjanike su na turnirima upravo zbog teškog oklopa na konje podizali dizalicama, a mnogi kraljevi se udavili u barama od 20 cm do 50 cm dubine jer nisu mogli da ustanu zbog težine oklopa, od Fridriha Barbarose, nekih Ugarskih kraljeva nadalje).
Što se tiče tisućnika, grčki termin hiljada počinjemo da koristimo srazmerno kasno, još se u Dušanovom zakoniku koristi pojam tisuća kao čisto srpski - opšteslovenski (hrvatski tisuća i ruski tisjač- ovako se nekako čita).

@anbeast

Samo nastavi, Very Happy odavno nisam video ovako dobru prezentaciju srednjevekovne opreme (svi će se smejati kada kažem da sam je zadnji put tako dobro prikazanu video u stripu Princ Valijant, ali njegov tvorac Harold Foster je pre oko 70 godina biciklom obišao čitavu Britaniju tagajući za izvorima kako bi najtačnije moguće prikazao taj period)... Samo napred, inače koji je izvor ako nije tajna.

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Hvala, Stegonosa. Ehhh, Princ Valijant.... Citalo se, citalo.... Jedini problem sa njim (Sa Fosterom) je sto govori o dogadjajima koji su se verovatno zbili izmedju 5. i 6. veka a vitezove prikazuje sa opremom iz 11. - 12. i pominje krstaske pohode tu i tamo Very Happy Nema veze , oprosteno mu je. Very Happy Iskreno receno, po mojim saznanjima, to sa cekrcima i vitezovima je mit. Turnirski oklop jeste bio mnogo tezi od ratnog ali ne toliko da bi se koristio cekrk. I turniri kakvi nam obicno padnu na pamet pri pomenu vitestva, sa pregradom izmedju jahaca i celom ceremonijom su proizvod kasnog srednjeg veka kada je vitestvo, u vojnom smislu, bilo na izmaku. Izvor slicica i rekonstrukcija sam napisao na pocetku.(mozda nije pregledno), ali ponovicu: Osprey publishing serija Men at Arms. Ima jedno 200 - 300 knjiga koje pokrivaju period od antike preko srednjeg veka do npr. Rodezijske vojske. U Beogradu tih knjiga ima u IPS-u u Knez Mihajlovoj, a bogami i na netu u pdf-u.(samo progooglaj)

Dopuna: 23 Feb 2009 23:36



Evo nekoliko vrsta seciva koja su se koristila u nasem okruzenju. S obzirom da su se Balkanom jos od 4.-5. veka setkali mnogi azijski narodi , pocev od Huna,preko Bugara, Avara i Madjara do Mongola i uzevsi u obzir Vizantijsku vladavinu Malom Azijom i uzajamni uticaj naroda Balkana logicno je da su se Srbi sreli sa sabljom mnogo pre dolaska Otomana. Moja pretpostavka je da sablja ipak nije bila rasprostranjena. Svako napadacko oruzje se razvija da bi pobedilo odbrambeno u datim okolnostima. Sablja je gotovo iskljucivo oruzje za secu. U azijskim uslovima relativno lako oklopljenih ratnika ona je imala svoju ulogu. U evropskom okruzenju plocastog oklopa bila je prilicno beskorisna. Za pobedu protiv plocastog oklopa razvijane su posebne tehnike i oruzje. Pre svega nadzak a i evropski mac dobija specifican klinasti oblik pogodniji za bod nego za secenje. Da ja ne bih davio evo linka na kome ima brdo zanimljivog materijala: http://www.thearma.org/HEMA.htm (linkovao sam samo jedan uvodni tekst, a koga interesuje neka kopa po sajtu.Mislim da ce pomoci u razbijanju mnogih uvrezenih pogleda na srednjevekovnu borbu)

O ARTILJERIJI



The question of when the Ottomans first used firearms is still unanswered. The tufek, in its Persian form of tufenk, is mentioned in a mid-14th century Turkish epic in the hands of Christians. By that date it seems unlikely to have meant a Greek Fire syphon (see MAA 89, Byzantine Armies 886-1118} and probably referred to a primitive hand-gun as used in Italy (see MAA 136, Italian Medieval Armies 1300-1500). These Italian schiopetti, like the cerbottani blow-pipes, sound similar to the Persian zabtanah blow-pipe, a term which, by the 5th century, had become synonymous with tiifek\
Guns were adopted by the Mamluks of Egypt and the Moors of Spain in the mid-14th century, before being accepted by the Turks; yet it was the Ottomans who, of all Muslims, used them with the greatest success. Cannon may have been used against Karamania in 1388 and at the battles of Kosovo (1389) and Nikopol (1396). They were almost certainly used in sieges during the 1420s, while field artillery grew in importance from the 1440s.
The Balkans were an obvious source of Ottoman artillery. Venetian sclopi guns had been used in Dalmatia since 1351, while the Serbians imported medium-sized bombards from Venice or Dubrovnik in the 1380s before making their own in the 1390s. Skilled Balkan gun-makers, not all of whom became Muslim, were subsequently given timar fiefs by the Ottoman conquerors. Experts also came from further afield, including Urbanus of Transylvania whose huge cannon sealed the fate of Istanbul
(Isecak iz knjige Osprey Men at Arms: Armies of the Ottoman Turks )


Evo kratak tekstic (vise skica) o Srpskoj vojsci:

Serbia
(Iz: Osprey-Men-at-Arms 195 - Hungary And The Fall of Eastern Europe 1000-1568.)

The cattle-raising Serbian tribes under their zupan chiefs were partly tribal, partly feudal, and only partly Christian when, in the 11 th century, two principalities began to emerge. These were Zeta in the west and Raska in the east. While Zeta was backward but free, Raska was stronger but under Byzantine domination. In 1172 Stephan Nemanja of Raska threw off an enfeebled Byzantium and, after uniting with Zeta, created the first medieval Serbian state. For a century and a half Serbia struggled to survive in the face of Byzantine, Hungarian and Bulgarian ambitions while Bogomilism was suppressed and the kingdom became thoroughly Orthodox.

Its small army developed under Byzantine and Hungarian influence but had little cavalry, relying mainly on infantry armed with javelins, spears, daggers, bows and even poisoned arrows. Swords were rare until the 14th century, by which time composite bows and crossbows were coming into use. Armour was almost unknown until the 12th century, after which mail rather than lamellar was favoured. Western-style plate armour came into use in the 14th century, though helmets seem to been imported from both East and West.
. From the late 13th century increasing wealth from mining enabled Serbia's rulers to recruit mercenaries, while the core of their army now consisted of armoured horse-archers equipped in Byzantine or elite Mongol style with composite bows, maces and some horse-armour. Nevertheless, many light in¬fantrymen still used javelins, although the crossbow became by far the most important infantry weapon in the i4th century. Both crossbow and archery training seem to have been highly developed, with special ranges, exercises and competitions. By the 15th century crossbows spanned by a belthook were largely replaced by those drawn by a windlass. A Serbian army of 1347. wore hauberks, coifs, greaves, gorgets and possibly separate gauntlets. Much of this was imported from Italy and Germany, as were coracia coats-of-plates, collarie neck-guards and barbuta helmets. Kord daggers could indicate Hungarian or nomadic Turkish influence in the late 13th century, as might the adoption of curved sabres some years later.
Serbian palaces and fortresses were still mostly of wood, being little more than earthen ramparts with palisades, but some stone fortifications dating from Byzantine days existed in the south. Yet the Serbs did use mangonels in siege warfare, and more advanced stone castles could be seen on the Adriatic coast, where Serbia had won a small outlet around 1196.
Ever since its foundation, the From the late 13th century increasing wealth from mining enabled Serbia's rulers to recruit Serbian kingdom had looked south towards Byzantium, both as the source of its civilisation and later as an arena for expansion. The first advances came in the reign of Stephan Uros II (1282-1321), but it was his son Stephan Uros III who made a breakthrough by defeating Bulgaria at Kyustendil in 1330. This battle made Serbia the leading Balkan power; it also highlighted some interesting differences between a Bulgaria under Eastern military influence, and a Serbia now influenced by the West. While the Bulgars were supported by numerous Mongol and Wallachian horse-archers, the Serbian force ap¬parently included some 1,000 Spaniards, perhaps Catalan veterans of Byzantine service.
The Serbian front rank consisted of cavalry with infantry to the rear, and it was their sudden assault against the enemy's centre which quickly broke the Bulgars.
Despite his victory, Stephan Uros III was overthrown by a nobility which considered him too peaceful. In his place they raised his son Stephan Dusan who became the greatest conqueror in Serbian history. Trade and mining had now made Serbia rich and Dusan used this wealth to recruit a large, mostly German, mercenary force. While striving for peace in the north he overran huge areas of Byzantine territory to the south, eventually proclaiming himself 'Emperor of the Serbs and Greeks'—to which he later added 'Bulgarians and Albanians'. Clearly Dusan intended to replace the ailing Byzantine Empire with his own, and he was actually preparing to attack Constantinople when he suddenly died in 1355. Stephan Dusan's imperial army was built on the existing Byzantine military administration. A levy of peasants was rarely used, but although Dusan disbanded the famous Vlach cavalry of Thessaly his army did include Albanians and Greeks as well as Serbian feudal forces.
Cavalry and infantry archers or crossbowmen served under local leaders around a royal army of local and foreign mercenaries. Such forces were theoretically divided along Byzantine lines into units of 15, 100 and 1,000 men under the command of tisucnik leaders of 1,000, voivodes and great voivodes. Foreigners disseminated Western military ideas and weapons, but the Westernisation of the local military elite was to contribute to a growing gulf between aristocracy and commoners. This in turn played its part in Serbia's inability to resist the Ottomans. Nor was the Westernised army particularly effective against Turkish forces, being defeated by a relatively small and unprepared Ottoman expeditionary force in 1344.
Westernisation does not seem to have affected military architecture outside the coastal strip; 14th-ccntury Serbia was now dotted with stone fortresses, but these were built in the old Byzantine style with high walls and rectangular towers incapable of resisting cannon. Gunpowder artillery became, in fact, increasingly common in the late 14th and 15th centuries, having first been imported via Dubrovnik in 1351. The Serbs had bombards at the first battle of Kosovo in 1389, but were still soundly beaten by the Ottomans. Cannon were soon being made in Serbia, although the Turks were the ones to benefit, as gunners from the now-vassal state of Serbia were helping the Ottomans in Anatolia in 1390 and 1402. Handguns or schiopos were also widespread.
By this time Dusan's empire was only a memory, having disintegrated shortly after his death. The fragments came together to challenge the Ottomans in 1371 but were disastrously defeated. The south fell tributary to the Turks, while the northern Serbs challenged the Ottomans again, winning victories in 1386 and 1388 before being virtually annihilated at the first battle of Kosovo a year later. The despots of northern Serbia survived as Ottoman vassals for another 70 years, their cavalry tipping the scales against a combined Hungarian-Crusader army at the battle of Nicopolis in 1396. The Despot George Brankovic did support Hunyadi Janos of Hungary against the Ottomans, but he refused to break a peace treaty of 1443, and so was not with Hunyadi in the disastrous Varna campaign of 1444. Nevertheless Smederovo, the capital of the des-potate, was seized by the Ottomans 15 years later, thus ending almost the last flicker of Serbian independence.
Down in the south, however, in what had been the ancient Serbian principality of Zeta, a tiny mountain-top kingdom known as Montenegro maintained a precarious, though permanent, hold on freedom.
(Tu i tamo tekst je neprecizan i pomalo pausalan ali na malom prostoru dosta kazuje) Obecavam necu daviti vise Very Happy

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