Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor

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Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor

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Mislim da ce sacekati da jos neko napravi priblizno dobar avion,a oni da krenu u modernizaciju ili proizvodnju neceg jos boljeg (ako je uopste moguce),pa onda prodaja



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TOP GUN ::U vezi price o tome kako Australija nece F-35 nego hoce da izmoli F-22 Mr. Green

Mr. Green

Mislim da sad vec malo preteruju. Zemlje u okruzenju imaju Su-30 i po koja ce nabaviti Su-35.

Australiji zapravo treba eskadrila su-34 i time bi se ova prica zavrsila.
A ostatak poslova moze preuzeti F-18 ili F-35.



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leonard ::TOP GUN ::U vezi price o tome kako Australija nece F-35 nego hoce da izmoli F-22 Mr. Green

Mr. Green

Mislim da sad vec malo preteruju. Zemlje u okruzenju imaju Su-30 i po koja ce nabaviti Su-35.

Njihovo okruzenje je okean i Novi Zeland,gore je indonezija,Tajland,Vijetnam,Singapur...Kina je jos malo dalje Smile mozda ce neka zemlja u blizini imati nesto SU-35 ali ne i PAK-FA...
Ali sta ces pokusavaju da na sve nacine ocrne F-35 i namole F-22,oni svo vreme pricaju o air superiority fighteru....

Citat:Australiji zapravo treba eskadrila su-34 i time bi se ova prica zavrsila.
A ostatak poslova moze preuzeti F-18 ili F-35.


Da li bi uradili tako nesto Smile ?

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Wisdomseeker ::Amerikanci bi namlatili pare kad bi krenuli da prodaju F-22. Izrael, Japan, Australija, našla bi se još poneka zemlja. Samo ove tri bi kupile oko 300 aviona.

Khm. Ako budu prodavali po istoj ceni koju placa USAF onda je to obicna placka americkih poreske obveznika.

Razvoj F-22 je bio preskup i ako bi se uracunao u cenu avion bi bio znatno skuplji tj. ne bi bio ispod 200 miliona $ po komadu. Taj razvoj je placan iz poreza.

Kada je radjena studija za F-22 racunali su da u startu kupe oko 800komada. Tada bi cena jednog trebala da bude na nesto veca od cene poslednje verzije F-15. Ali tokom vremena proizvodjacka cena je rasla a broj aviona se smanjivao pa je danas realna cena F-22 preko 200miliona $.

Dopuna: 08 Apr 2009 15:47

@Topgun

Naravno da nece kupiti Su-34. Leonard je mislio da ako se pogleda sta sve Su-34 moze on ispunjava ono sto Australiji treba i jedini moze da zameni F-111.

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mean_machine ::
@Topgun

Naravno da nece kupiti Su-34. Leonard je mislio da ako se pogleda sta sve Su-34 moze on ispunjava ono sto Australiji treba i jedini moze da zameni F-111.


Ma znam da nece,nego cisto onako Mr. Green

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leonard ::F-22 je potpuno nebitan. Imaju dovoljno naoruzanja i ovako najveci broj zadataka obavjaju bespilotne letelice. F-35 ce biti odlican biznis.

Potpuno nebitan?

F-22 treba da zameni F-15C/D kojih ima oko 500-600 komada (mozda i vise, nisam siguran).....ti si ubedjen da manje od 200 Raptora moze da zameni 3 puta vise F-15? Uzmi u obzir da je prosecna starost F-15 25-30 godina i da nece moci da se koriste u beskonacnost

F-35 je zamena za F-16, F-18, A-10 i Harier.....jednomotorni lovac-bombarder koji nikad nije zamisljen kao cistokrvni lovac

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@leonard, mean machine

australiji bi f-15 resio probleme isto tako dobro, pa i bolje nego su-34. pricali smo vec o doletu, a sad su napravili vec i f-15se sa stelt osobinama, doduse ne kao kod f-22/35, ali sasvim dovoljnim da stekne prednost nad protivnicima.

@Taso

pitanje je da li ce f-15 u penziju, posebno f-15e sa vekom zmaja od odlicnih 8000 h. uz remont, ovi bi mogli da lete jos dosta vremena. ako prihvate f-15se, bila bi to solidna kompenzacija.

iako je f-35 zamisljen kao bomb-truck, sa stelt osobinama i aesa radarom bi itekako bio dobar i kao lovac, bolji od bilo kog drugog aviona osim f-22. ako stvarno zaustave nabavke f-22, i uloze dodatna sredstva u f-35, budi siguran da ce se f-35 jos vise pribliziti f-22. sada ih najvise muci broj raketa v-v kojih ima 4, ali jos uvek nije iskoriscen pun potencijal amraam-a, jer nijedna verzija ne sklapa krilca, niti su iskoristili ram dzet pogon, a ipak imaju najveci domet. sa skalpanjem krilaca bi elegantno resili smestaj veceg broja raketa.

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@Taso
Amerika nikad nije imala vise od 550 operativnih F-15 u aktivnoj sluzbi. Jos kad se tome doda da je jedan dobar broj Strike Eagle. Koliko onda ostaje cistokrvnih lovaca.
F-22 ce sa svojih stoosamdeset i nesto aviona upravo zameniti negde oko 1/2 F-15 aviona namenjenje za lovacke zadatke.

Ti si naveo dosta aviona koje F-35 treba da zameni. Samo si zaboravio da ce F-18 Super Hornet i Growler ostati u sluzbi i posle 2030. F-35 mornaricka verzija ce zameniti neke F-18, a neke F-18 ce zameniti Super Hornet. Growler ce zameniti A-6.

Kad govorimo o F-35 onda treba voditi racuna o tome da postoje tri razlicite verzije koje se mogu smatrati skoro pa razlicitim avionima.

Inace koliko sam shvatio ona modernizacija F-15, odno Silent Eagle, bazira se na F-15 Strike Eagle.

Evo ovde ukratko o F-15 silent Eagle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15SE_Silent_Eagle

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Citat:F-15C
Improved single-seat all-weather air-superiority fighter version, 483 built 1979-85.
F-15D
Two-seat training version, 92 built 1979-85

F-15E
Two-seat all-weather long-range strike and ground-attack aircraft for the U.S. Air Force. A total of 237 were built from 1985 to 2001.

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sebab ::@Taso

pitanje je da li ce f-15 u penziju, posebno f-15e sa vekom zmaja od odlicnih 8000 h. uz remont, ovi bi mogli da lete jos dosta vremena. ako prihvate f-15se, bila bi to solidna kompenzacija.

iako je f-35 zamisljen kao bomb-truck, sa stelt osobinama i aesa radarom.............


leonard ::@Taso
Amerika nikad nije imala vise od 550 operativnih F-15 u aktivnoj sluzbi. Jos kad se tome doda da je jedan dobar broj Strike Eagle. Koliko onda ostaje cistokrvnih lovaca.
F-22 ce sa svojih stoosamdeset i nesto aviona upravo zameniti negde oko 1/2 F-15 aviona namenjenje za lovacke zadatke.................


Optimisti do kraja... Very Happy

Evo sta kazu pesimisti:

Citat:Group decries pending ‘fighter gap’

In October, Dunn warned about the “fighter gap” — the projected 10-year span beginning in 2015 when F/A-18 Hornets start retiring faster than new Joint Strike Fighters arrive to replace them. He estimated the gap to be “at least 125” at the time.

“If anything, things have gotten worse,” he said, pointing to the fact that “aircraft are being over-utilized” in Iraq and Afghanistan and the “ongoing attacks in the Pentagon and on Capitol Hill.”

“At the current rate, given no further procurement, the Navy will be as many as 150, perhaps as many as 200, strike fighters short of what’s needed within five years, and that’s with the most optimistic projection of JSF production,” he wrote.

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/04/navy_fightergap_040309/

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..."If aircraft are not replaced by 2020, 11 of the 18 current air sovereignty alert sites could be without aircraft. The Air Force has not developed plans to mitigate these challenges because it has been focused on other priorities."...


When we discussed this issue during the exit conference of our review, Air Force and NGB/ANG officials acknowledged that the end of the F-15s' useful service lives could occur earlier than 2025 if the aircraft are increasingly used for overseas deployments or other missions.

During discussions for the fiscal year 2010 programming cycle, the Air Force sought approval from the Office of the Secretary of Defense to retire 137 F-15s and 177 F-16s earlier than originally planned.


Extending the life of F-15E Strike Eagles, an airframe that was made for a service life of 15,000 hours is possible.

Extending the life of the F-15C is not realistic.

USAF has such a small number of Block 50 and 52 F-16s, the most new in USAF inventory, as to be of some worry.

http://worldwidewarpigs.blogspot.com/2009/01/gao-r.....admap.html

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More scary reading about the 'fighter gap'
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009.....the-f.html



Da odgovorim na neke od citiranih komentara...

1. F-15SE je za izvoz. Ako se odluce da kupe veci broj za USAF onda ce biti manje para za F-35....'catch 22' situacija

2. Osim Lockheed Martin propagande i napaljenih forumasa, vrlo malo ozbiljnijih analiticara veruje da ce F-35 biti gotov na vreme i za cenu koju pominju. Neki cak veruju da ce program mozda biti napusten zbog tehnickih problema i preterane cene.

3. A to da ce F-35 moci porediti sa F-22 i da ce biti bolji od bilo kog drugog stranog aviona je ....hmmm Cool

Citat:Some in General Shackelford’s peer group don’t agree either. Major General Rick Lewis USAF(ret), who formerly lead the F-22 program, stated in the March 17, 2008 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology that, “The key to the F-22’s advantage over the F-35 is its speed and stealth optimized to counter advanced and integrated air defense systems. The F-35’s survivability and effectiveness would be much less than that of the F-22 because it employs subsonic speeds, lower altitudes, lower G and has half the missile load.” If any aircraft is a “premiere surface-to-air-missile killer”, it is the F-22.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3354.html




Koliko ce da kosta jedan F-35 niko jos nezna. LM siri bajke da ce cena da bude 'negde oko $60 miliona'

Citat:Lockheed said it was on track to meet its F-35 cost projections.

It said the conventional take-off and landing model was projected to cost in the "upper" $60 million range per copy in adjusted 2014 dollars, when full production is due to kick in.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNew.....dChannel=0



Ali evo sta kazu Izraelci koji pregovaraju o nabavci F-35..

Citat:But the U.S. and Israel aren’t past the first major step – the price. The sales price with spares, manuals and long-term technical help is “more than $100 million each.”

IAF officials won’t reveal the asking price, but they do say that if the price was only $100 million each, the deal would have already been signed for 75 aircraft

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?i.....el=defense
.


Projekcije o ceni (USAF)
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_DfbUPDqtPVI/SZOkTJ5j5HI/AAAA.....e09GIF.gif

Ispod imate spisak problema tokom razvoja F-35.

prema nekim izvestajima, izvedeni su tek oko 2-5% potrebnih testova tako da niko jos ne zna sta jos predstoji a neki ga vec proglasili za naj, naj, najboljeg u svetu Very Happy

Citat:F-35, MORE REDESIGN

-- The F-35 is having enough of a problem getting rid of excess heat that it will require a redesign.

-- A look at the history of the aircraft shows some interesting surprises that needed redesign. One of the aircraft’s big selling points was commonality of the three variants and ease of production. This started to go away in 2003 during a weight reduction event to shed some pounds from the design. “Make-joints”, appliances built into the design to make assembly easier, were a victim of the diet. After the 2004 weight reduction event, more commonality of design and ease of assembly were traded off. This added a year lost and billions of dollars to the program.

-- 2006 saw the killing of certifying external fuel tanks for the end of the test program. They posed too much risk and couldn’t be figured out in time. Today the jet is hyped and sold as not needing external fuel tanks. Go figure.

-- Internal carry of four AIM-132 ASRAAM missiles couldn't be qualified in time to meet schedules. It was too much work. The answer was to certify only two for internal carry and if two more were needed, put them out on the wings.

-- 2007 saw funds let to redesign the engines to create more electrical power output. This was the result of a long grounding of the program to fix a flight control failure during a test mission.

-- Not long afterward were engine problems that added over a year to the qualification for Short-Take-Off and Landing (STOVL) flight for the F-35B model.

-- Now there will be the heat-sink issue that will cause some redesign. How much extra money will this cost and what will it due to the scheduled USMC initial operating capability (IOC) for 2012?

What is next after that? With several times more software code than an F-22, expect that there will be a lot of compromise here just to get the jet out the door. The capability definition of Block I, II, and III jets was watered down in 2008 compared to what it was in 2006.

After this there are airframe fatigue problems. With so little testing done thus far, the U.S. is already committing itself to make hundreds of “mistake jets” before full rate production and the finish of development testing. Question marks on fatigue knowledge were mentioned in past reports going back to 2007.

Mr. Gates seems happy that there is no real risk in the program.

http://worldwidewarpigs.blogspot.com/2009/04/f-35-more-redesign.html

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