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- Pridružio: 21 Feb 2018
- Poruke: 45
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Napisano: 04 Aug 2018 1:15
ray ban11 ::^
Moze i tako da se formulise ,dakle pored termina `velike ( duboke ) modernizacije`, da je Su-35S zapravo ili gotovo pa novi lovac razvijen na bazi Su-27S. 
Project: T-10S (S=series)
Product: Su-27S (Comercial designation)
Product: Su-27P (Versión of 1989 to bypass the FACE treaty, dismantling the few ground attack equipment of Su-27S)
Product: Su-27SM (SM= SERIES MODERNIZED upgrading the ground attack equipament of Su-27´s)
Product: Su-27SM3 (upgrading Su-27 to Su-35S level).
Project: T-10M (M=MODIFIED)=модификация/modification of Project T-10
Product: Su-35
Project: T-10M2 or T-10BM second modification or deep modification of Project T-10
Product: Su-35S
ray ban11 ::^
Moze i tako da se formulise ,dakle pored termina `velike ( duboke ) modernizacije`, da je Su-35S zapravo ili gotovo pa novi lovac razvijen na bazi Su-27S.
Su-35 and Su-30 both are an evolution of the Soviet Su-27, in the same way that the MiG-31 (first prototype MiG-25MP) is an evolution of the MiG-25, but in both cases they are different aircraft
Dopuna: 04 Aug 2018 1:34
zixo ::Постојале су информације да је уговор о модернизацији Су-27 на стандард СМ3 за 36 авиона.
За Су-25СМ3 50 авиона. И могуће дорада СМ на тај стандард.
Мислим да неће бити претеклих Су-24, сада их има активном мање од 100 и требало би да се сви замене авионима Су-34. Мада са друге стране постоје фотке свеже ремонтованих бомбардера Су-24М па чак и извиђача Су-24МР.
That is not true
VKS only needed 1 squadron of 12 planes Su-27SM3 to complete the Krimsk regiment
The only reason for Russia bougth a squadron of Su-27SM3 (of the surplus of the Chinese order of Su-27) was that in 2010 the regiment of Krimsk had two squadrons of obsolete Su-27S of the first batchs (from 562 IAP, delivered in 1986)
Krimsk was closed in 2011 and only one squadron of 3 IAP remaining operative at Millerovo, so was very necesary to buy one new squadron, because the Su-35S production was delay for several years
If the Su-35 had been available a couple of years earlier, today Krimsk would have a regiment of Su-35S instead of Su-27SM3
The "rumors" about an order of 36 Su-27SM3 are only rumors of the year 2013 or 2014, when Putin wanted to open a base in Belarus with 24 Su-27SM3 , that were given as a confirmed fact in some Russian blog or forum
belarusdigest.com/story/opinion-russias-troublesome-ally/
In late 2014, at a meeting between president Aliaksandr Lukashenka and Russian Minister of Defence Sergey Shoigu, the latter proposed to station a regiment of 24 Sukhoi Su-27SM3
However, after the problems and sanctions that brought the crisis of Ukraine, Lukachenko said he did not want a Russian base in Belarus, so the VKS does not need more Su-27SM3.
By 2020 VKS will retire all old versions of Su-27 , and will have at least:
7 Su-35 squadrons
3 Su-27SM sq.
2 Su-27SM3 sq.
Total 12 squadrons, enough for 6 complete regiments.
Today there are only 10 combat squadrons in six places.
*22 IAP should receive a second squadron and send MiG-31BM´s to Sokolovka-Chuguyeva (restoring 530 IAP)
*Khotilovo shoud receive other squadron and restore the 611 IAP, probably at Dorokhovo-Bezhetsk
In 2021-2025 VKS Will receive other 60 Su-35 (5 squadrons, 1 by year) for replace all modernized Su-27´s (modernization SM : 2004-2009 , this is more of 15 until 20 years)
About the squadron of new Su-27SM3 (2011) could be used for training, or relocated at a outstanding airbase (Siria, Kirgizistan) or well could be sold to Siria or other ally country
About the Navy, 689 IAP will be restored soon
Chkalovsk will be reopened before this year ends
With the Su-27P squadron of Chernyakhovsk and the 10 remaining Su-27SM is enough for rebuild the 689 IAP, that can be replaced by Su-35 in 2026-2027
Dopuna: 04 Aug 2018 2:06
ltcolonel ::Rey još kada je predstavljan desetogodišnji plan razvoja ruske armije lepo je objašnjeno zašto neće biti masovne serijske proizvodnje aviona Su-57 jer Rusi smatraju da su Su-30 i Su-35 više nego dovoljni. To je bilo još pre više od šest meseci.
Nije jasno tj nije deifinisano u planu i razradi plana:
da li se pod 60 aviona Su-57 do 2030. godine podrazumeva da u taj broj ulazi i 12 predserijskih ili bez njih
Nobody ever said there was going to be a "mass" production of the Su-57 (except for one of those Western magazines or think tanks)
Ten years ago, the General Staff of VVS decided to replace the Soviet models (Su-27, MiG-29, Su-24) with the triad of new Sukhoi 30/34/35
Su-35S replaces Su-27 as PVO fighter
Su-34 replaces Su-24M/M2/MR as tactical bomber of frontal aviation.
Su-30SM replaces MiG-29´s as frontal figther (western "strike figther" or FGA) as happened in Domna, Millerovo and Kursk
Su-30SM will replace also Su-27UB as two-seater in Su-35 Squadrons (Dzemgi, Vladivostok,....)
Also Su-30SM will replace all Su-24M/MR in the Navy
Then is not necesary more planes for replace soviet airplanes
In the next decade will desing repacement for MiG-31 and Su-25, now both are being modernized
Su-57 is a necesary step between generation 4º and generation 6º, after 15-20 years of delay in the aeronautical industry of Russia after the fall of the USSR
The most probable is small ammounts of Su-57 between 2019 and 2030-32 for raise up 2 or 3 new regiments (60 to 90 airplanes), and can design a new 6º generation of airplanes based on Su-57 (at least one PVO figther "Su-67" , and one strike figther "Su-60"), in the same way Su-30/34/35 are based in Su-27, but this will happen after 2040, when Rusia will replace the first Su-30 and 35 with more of 30 years old
ltcolonel :: U međuvremenu je u ruskoj vojnoj štampi i vojnim forumima dosta toga rečeno o tom planu. Ono što nije sporno i što niko ne dovodi u pitanje je:
proizvodnja Su-35 će se nataviti do 2030. godine tempom po oko 10 aviona godišnje
proizvodnja Su-30 će se nastaviti BAR do 2027. godine tempom od oko 15 aviona godišnje.
kommersant.ru/doc/3397090
Производство многофункциональных истребителей Су-30СМ к 2022 году будет практически завершено. По данным “Ъ”, ОАК нужно обеспечить до 2022 года загрузку мощностей производством около 100 Су-30СМ
The production of Su-30SM will end about 2023 or maybe 2024-2025 depending on the contracts and the pace of production
The Irkut factory is not interested in producing 15 or 20 aircraft per year, they can produce 25, 30 or more as in 2015
Otherwise, it is more profitable to produce civilian aircraft that are in great demand.
Why 10 Su-35 and 15 Su-30SM for VKS?
Production of Su-35 in 2017: 10 Russia 10 China = 20 aircraft
in 2018 10 Russia, 10 China, 2 Indonesia? = 20-22 aircraft
2019: production 20 or more , customers, Russia and what country more?
Indonesia will receive 6 in february 2020 and 3 in July 2020
The plan for 10 airplanes was for three years 2016-2018 , while China quickly received its 24 aircraft
After that there are not reason for Russia can receive 14 or more Su-35 as in 2015
VKS has received 22 fighters in last 3 years:
2016, 2017 and planned for 2018: 10 Su-35 and 12 Su-30SM each year (the other Su-30´s for Navy)
However the Su-30SM is about complete for VKS:
Domna complete, Millerovo need 4 or 5 for complete, Kursk complete this year
Only necesary Su-30SM for complete Su-35 regiments: 4 for Besovets and 2 more each new Su-35 squadron
This means 2020-2025 VKS only need 2-4 Su-30SM by year.
In total VKS will need a new contract for 24-28 Su-30SM
However ,the NAVY will need at least 12 Su-30SM by year since 2020 for replace the 4 squadrons of Su-24 (2 Monche,Saki, Chernyakhovsk), and perhaps other 24 for a new regiment in the Pacific Fleet. The number could be 18 or more by year for the Navy if Irkut want to close the production in 2023.
The reason why Navy now only receives a few Su-30SM by year is that have not pilots enough, and need training for more pilots with the new squadrons at Saki and Chernyakhovsk.
After get a couple of squadrons between 2014 and 2019,Navy could raise at least a new squadron each year
Then the procurement of Su-35 for VKS could be higher, 14 or 16 from 2020 until 2025, and after that Su-35 for Navy
ltcolonel ::nije još odlučeno da li će se kad se završi dosadašnja narudžina Su-34 naručiti dodatnih 36 do 40 za još jedan puk ili ne
With the 129 ordered (5 in 2006 , 32 in 2009 and 92 in 2012) there are enough for 10 squadrons:
Lípetsk(1), Vorónezh(2), Morozovsk (3) , Khurba (2) , Chelyabisnk (2) and several airplanes at Akhtbinsk and Vorónezh aeronautical academy
Then only remaining 2 squadrons of Su-24M at Marinovka and Simferópol, and also 4 squadrons of Su-24MR , one each Military district (Shatalovo,Marinovka, Chelyabisnk and Varfolomeyevka)
Total 6 squadrons for replace
The next order for Su-34 (Su-34M) will be for 48 or 72 aircraft (totalling 180-200 Su-34), depending if they are for 2 or 3 regiments:
Marinovka, Varfolomeyevka and perhaps Shatalovo
Once Marinovka receive 2 squadrons of Su-34 , the 3rd squadron of Morozovsk can go to 37 SAP at Simferópol
Citat:potpuno je nedifinisan broj Migova 35
MiG-35 will be an aircraft for export mainly
Now there are only 5 squads of soviet MiG-29´s where substitution by MiG-35 is possible, about 70-75 aircraft (half of them MiG-29UB, not urgent to replace)
Only one squad is combat in Armenia (16-18 aircraft)
The rest are training units , or the display squadron at Kubinka, the only confirmed place for MiG-35
Even the remaining "Algerian" MiG-29SMT planes from Kursk are unclear if they are going to relocate, withdraw or sell to another country
ltcolonel ::nije definisano ni koliko će još starih Su-27 biti modernizovano u Su-27SM3 - postoji još oko 100 upotrebljivih Su-27 koji mogu da se modernizuju
The modernization of the Su-27SM3 was necessary 10-15 years ago, now it is too late, there are enough Su-35 in next years for the current regiments
There are about 70 SU-27P available, but only the half are still in service.
In 2020 all "not modernized" Su-27 will be retired
The older Su-27S does not fly since about 2016.
Only 1 just repaired Su-27S still seems to fly at Khotilovo
Su-27SM was modernized 2004-2009, and are airplanes of 1988-1990.
Even Su-27SM3 just modernized are of 1990-1992
In 2025 all "modernized" Su-27 will be withdraw of VKS, and as late in 2027 of Navy, if Navy receive any Su-27 modernized
Citat:nije definisano koliko će od preteklih Su-24 da se modernizuje u nosače krsterćih raketa a koliko u nosioce protiv - brodskih raketa a koliko u avione za PED
nije definisano koliko će jurišnika Su-25 biti modernizovano
militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=475842
Порядка 200 штурмовиков ВКС РФ могут быть модернизированы до Су-25СМ3
есь парк штурмовой авиации ВКС РФ может быть модернизирован до облика Су-25СМ3
There are 4 squads of Su-25 to modernize including planes to replace lost ones. That's around 48 planes that have already been ordered 24.
If the Buturnilovka regiment (999 ShAP) announced some years ago is reopened when the Su-34 of 47 BAP to return to Voronezh, then we would be talking about a total of 72 Su-27SM3
Also the 6 squads of Su-27SM will surely be upgrading to Su-25SM3, other 72
If at the end, it is modernized all the fleet will be about 120-144 single-seater
As for the Su-25UBM could also be modernized, it would be about 42-48
The total will go to 180-200
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