Istorijski revizionizam - pseudoistorija

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Istorijski revizionizam - pseudoistorija

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Eutropije ::Dobro, pojasnili ste Vaše stavove. Ne slažem se i smatram da se izvlačite od rasprave. Možda nisam u pravu pa Vas pozivam da se uključite na temu o Martovskim pregovorima. Može?

Kako sad to izvlačim se? Pročitaj ponovo ovo što sam napisao, malo sam ga dopunio. Dakle, uhvatio si se za dve moje reči kao da su uklesane u mermeru, a zapravo je čitav komentar predstavljao uzgrednu konstataciju na jednoj drugoj temi. Uhvtio si se za nebitne stvari a nećeš da komentarišeš suštinu. Mislim da se takva strategija pre može nazvati "izvlačenje".

Naravno da ću se pridružiti i drugoj temi, ukoliko mi vreme i mogućnosti to dozvole.



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Roby ::Dalje, ti stalno, od početka, udaraš na semantiku, da bi izbegao suštinu, a suština je ono što sam i u prethodnom postu rekao: partizanima je revolucija bila prioritet i borba protiv glavnog unutrašnjeg (klasnog) neprijatelja pa potom borba protiv okupatora.
Srećom tu je moderator pa da se ne vijamo na narednih 100 strana oko ove gliposti. Ziveli

U ratu nisu imali vremena da se bore protiv 'klasnog neprijatelja'. Komunisti su se prvo našli na pobedničkoj strani, odnosno dobili rat pa su tek onda sproveli revoluciju. Uostalom znamo da je menjano ime država iz čega se lako mogu izvesti jasni zaključci.



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  • grbe 
  • Legendarni građanin
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Ne znam zasto sa istim zarom ne revidirate I s.r.

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lav :: Оперативна страна рата!!!
Оператика је наука у склопу ратне вјештине, која изучава операције. Нај нижа оперативна јединица је корпус. У неким војскама оператика не постоји као независна наука, већ је у склопу тактике. За озбиљне расправе о оператици требало би имати завршену Ратну школу (IX степен стручне спреме-ранг доктора наука), а нај мање командно-штабну школу (VIII степен стручне спреме-ранг магистра).
Ако желимо истину, струком се морају бавити стручњаци. Свако не стручно преиспитивање историје је узалудно трошење сретстава, времана, а и живаца.

Ne govorim o operativnoj veštini, nego o operativnoj situaciji, namerama i potrebama zaraćenih strana.

Tako, na primer, imamo situaciju čiji je vojni sadržaj u tome da je nemački 21. brdski korpus od septembra do decembra 1944. blokiran u južnom delu Crne Gore. Pokušava da se probije prema Mostaru, ali bez uspeha. Komanda AgE 22. novembra donosi odluku o odustajanju od prodora preko Nikšića ka Hercegovini, i naređuje novi pravac: Podgorica - Kolašin - Prijepolje (Pljevlja) - Višegrad (Goražde). Da bi omogućila proboj, sa severa, iz Prijepolja, šalje snage 91. korpusa u susret napadnim klinovima 21. korpusa. Posle mesec dana borbe, uspevaju da se probiju.

Pri tom, snage Pavla Đurišića su sve vreme u sastavu nemačkog 21. korpusa, pod nemačkom taktičkom komandom.

O svemu tome, četnička istorija ima da kaže samo "Đurišićeve snage su se "povukle" u istočnu Bosnu". Nemaca - nigde.

Drugi primer:
Armijska grupa E oktobra-decembra 1944. probija se preko Sandžaka i istočne Bosne, da bi obezbedila snage za Sremski i Dravski front, gde treba da zaustave proboj Sremskog fronta do kojeg je umalo došlo početkom decembra, i, još važnije, da ojačaju južnu Mađarsku, gde je Crvena armija vodila ključnu bitku protiv Hitlera.
Mihailovićeve snage iz Srbije sadejstvju sve vreme Armijskoj grupi E, počev od ptoboja korz Sandžak, preko napada na Tuzlu između dve nemačke kolone, pa do zajedničke odbrane komunikacije Sarajevo-Brod od 2. armije JA.

O svemu tome četnički istoričari imaju da kažu samo "u Srbiju ušla Crvena armija, pa su se snage JVuO "povukle" u istočnu Bosnu, gde su "prezimile"".

I tako 16 puta.

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  • Gde živiš: Preußen, Hohenzollernsche Lande

Evo slike iz ''oslobođene Peći'' (iz lične kolekcije) kupljene od naslednika jednog od pripadnika Kosovske brigade ratnim fotkama njegovog dede.




Ako su partizani toliko čedni otkuda ovaj dokument kojim se Koča ovlašćuje da pregovara sa Švabama?!



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  • lav 
  • Super građanin
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gorran ::
Само сам желио рећи да озбиљну процјену војне моћи и оправданости војних одлука могу извршити само стручњаци, у овом случају официри са одговарајућом стручном спремом и искуством. о легалности и легитимности, само правници итд. Ја као лаик могу само да пишем о својим сазнањима, да постављам питања и да пишем о ономе што ми изгледа не логично. Могу и да износим своје мишљење, јер као што рекоше модератори, ово није научна трибина. Наслов је ревизија историје псеудоисторија, и ја мислим да треба урадити ревизију и да је требају урадити стручњаци. Ово је веома компликовано. Историја није електротехника, промијенеш поларитет и мотор врти у супротну страну.

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grbe ::Ne znam zasto sa istim zarom ne revidirate I s.r.

A, mali off.
I tu bi trebalo.

Da malo raspravimo zašto Pašić nije prihvatio Austrijsku ponudu separatnog mira, zašto je Srpska mladež terana preko Albanije,
Zašto su golobradi srpski mladići terani u proboj Solunskog fronta nekoliko meseci pred sam kraj rata?

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Poenta je u tome da istoričari ratnih zbivanja moraju imati neku osnovnu predstavu o vojnoj strani rata.
Jer, to i čini rat - ratom.
A ne politika - o kojoj doduše isto treba znati dovoljno.

Mada, mislim da je ovde pre na delu namerno ignorisanje činjenica koje ne odgovaraju željenim stavovima.
Odnosno, profesionalna nečasnost nekih istoričara. I "publicista".

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Barkman ::Ako su partizani toliko čedni otkuda ovaj dokument kojim se Koča ovlašćuje da pregovara sa Švabama?!


Добићемо ускоро тему о мартовским преговорима, па мислим да ћеш тамо добити одговоре.

Додуше, у овом овлашћењу помињу само размена заробљеника и статус заробљених.
Више о разменама заробљеника имаш овде:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=78201

G. Trifkovic ::Here is a brief chronology of German-NOVJ contacts (compiled using: Milan Basta-Djurica Labovic:"Partizani za pregovarackim stolom",Zagreb,1986; Vasa Kazimirovic:"Njemacki general u Zagrebu",Kragujevac-Beograd,1996):

* 7th of August-5th of September 1942:In Livno,one of the captured employees of "Hansa Leichtmetall" Hans Ott is released and sent to German authorities with Partisan proposals on prisoner exchange.On 23rd,Marijan Stilinovic travels to Zagreb for further talks.On 5th of September exchange is made at Studeno Vrelo (near Posusje,west-Herzegovina).49 Partisans were exchanged for Ing. Ott,seven other germans captured at Livno,and a group of 24 Croats;

*25th of September-17th of November 1942:In Jajce,4 German civilians were captured,including Ing. Ottmar Siegelhuber (of "Elektro-Bosna").HQ of the 1st Proleter brigade released one of them,one Franz Leinschütz.He went to Banja Luka with the exchange proposal.German authorities agreed,and the negotiations "were succesefuly led" on 17th of November,again at Livno. German delegation was composed of Hpt. Hans Heyss,Ing.Hans Ott and StBF Heinrich.NOVJ was represented by Vladimir Velebit and Mihovil Tartalja Misa.

*11th of March-1st half od April 1943: Hardly pressed with 4000 wounded in the Neretva valley,Tito offers prsioner exchange,truce and disscusion on some political questions and demands recognition of NOVJ as a regular fighting force. 24 German soldiers,including Major Arthur Strecker,CO of 2/738.IR were offered in exchange for Ivan Marinkovic of KPH,Hertha Hass and others.Negotiations were led by Vladimir Velebit and partly by Milovan Djilas and Koca Popovic from NOVJ side; German side was represented by Hans Ott,Edmund Glaise von Horstenau and partly by Gen.Benignus Dippold of 717.ID.Talks were held in G.Vakuf,Sarajevo and Zagreb.Prisoners were exchanged,railway sabotage in Croatia ceased for a while,but neither recognition of NOVJ nor deal on political questions were achieved (nor was any agreement signed).

*23rd of August-? 1943: 3rd Vojvodina brigade captured 24 Germans on 8/23 near the village Nestina (Ilok).Main HQ for Vojvodina authorised Vukasin Bivolarevic Volf to go to Ruma and propose exchange.Certain Volksdeutscher Felinger from village of Besenovi took the message to Wehrmacht colonel,commander of Ruma."All patriots in Ruma camp were offered;others could be brought from local prison"...Deal was made in the "Adler" inn,and the prisoners were exchanged on Jezovacki gat channel,between Ruma and Stejanovac.

*Summer of 1943-beginning of 1944: Contacts which began in March were maintained trough corspondence and trough visits of Marijan Stilinovic of Main HQ for Croatia to Zagreb.Siegrfried Kasche gave impulse for the new talks.Stilinovic met Ott in Zagreb in November 1943,and according to Kasche economical questions were disscused (such as shipping of chlorine from "Elektro-Bosna" to Germany),among others (recognition on NOVJ).

*Beginning of February 1944- early 1945:Pisarovina,30 km SW from Zagreb was agreed upon by both sides (late November-late December) to be an art of "neutral zone" (and 5km in all directions from Pisarovina) where prisoner exchanges could be made.NOVJ was mostly represented by Josip Brncic and than by Boris Bakrac.Sonderfuehrer Wilibald Nemecek (of Horstenau's staff) was representing the Germans.
Brncic remembers being in Zagreb 5 times,organising 5 exchanges thereby releasing some 200 partsians (50-60 were female).He exchanged his last group on 3/6/1944.
Bakrac travelled to Zagreb some 25 times.12-15 exchanges were made without his presence.Some 800-900 prisoners were exchanged.Here are some dates and numbers of partisans released (based on Bakrac's memory and notes he made at the time;published in "Zbornik 8 Historijskog instituta u Karlovcu",Karlovac 1977):

"12/12/1943:32 comrades,of which 7 members of KPJ,2 members of SKOJ,others simphatisers...
2/10/1944:57 fighters of which 1 brigade commissar,1 company commissar,2 corporals.All in all 9 KP members,,4 SKOJ members,other simphatisers...
4/25/1945:32 fighters of which 2 company Cmdrs,1 bat. commissar,1 com.commissar,all in all 11 KP members,2 SKOJ members,other simphatisers..."

Highest number (30) of partisans was asked for Gen.Karl Krebs Dewitz,captured in Banja Luka by 13th Krajina Bde in September 1944.Exchanges continued in Pisarovina until very late in the war.

*Late June-late July 1944: Upon capture of two soldiers of 369.ID (Kroat.),namely Unterfeldwebel Ewald Aulke and corporal Gerhard Wilcajc,South-Herzegovina NO detachment sent a letter to German command at Stolac,offering the two in exchange for Salko Mrgan (political worker) and Danilo Miletic. Meeting took place at Drenovac or Hill 286 south of Stolac,on June 29th 1944.One prisoner was exchanged. Germans were interested in continuing the talks.On July 31st,two other NCOs and three soldiers were exchanged on the Hill 286. Corespondence continued and "the prisoners were regulary exchanged,like in Pisarovina..."

*October 1944:Upon capture of 30 "Polish"(?) legioneers of 392.ID (Kro.) by 43.Istra division,German command in Ogulin proposed an exchange.OZNA officer Zvonko Barac was NOVJ representative.Talks were held at Sv.Jakov's church near Ogulin.30 persons wanted by NOVJ were transfered to Karlovac,and the exchange could not be made at the spot. However,in the next two days they were brought to Pisarovina and exchanged.

*End of February 1945: 16 officers and political workers of the 1.bat of 3.Zumberak Bde. captured at village of Jamnice were,after some problems,exchanged for 24 German officers.

*20th of February 1945-beginning of March 1945:Colonel Eberlein along with his son Major Eberlein of the 104th Jaeger division were captured when units of 6th Krajina Bde. attacked their armoured train between Busovaca and Lasva (central Bosnia).Talks were held with the German command in Vitez; for the two,5th NOVJ corps asked for partisans and equippment captured earlier in Vitez.Germans aparently agreed and the exchange was made.

*12th-16th of March 1945:Bakrac is in Zagreb,holding talks with Ott and Major(?) Stephani of Loehr' staff.Germans ask for a free passage for HG "E" to Austria.

*6th of May 1945:At 2200,Bakrac arrives for the last time in occupied Zagreb.He is taken to Zrinjevac,to German HQ. Oberst Selchow >see last post< meets him,announcing that Zagreb will spared of demolition,but also asks for a free passage to Austria.Bakrac declines.

During the night,Germans leave Zagreb,and next time they face the Partisans at the negotiation table,in Slovenia severak days later,it will be to disscuss surrender terms.

P.S. Corrections and suggestions are most welcomed.

Било је доста размена заробљеника.

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Evo ovde knjiga (pukovnika) Miše Lekovića iz 1984, koju je i Samardžić hvalio:

http://www.znaci.net/00001/170.htm

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