Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor

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Otvorena tema za virtuelni dogfajt:

http://www.mycity-military.com/Avijacija-i-PVO/Virtuelni-dogfight.html

U ovoj temi se fokusirajte na činjenice i podatke koji dolaze iz validnih izvora i realnog života.

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F 22 stealth technologie is very complex and radars are useless so far against it (S400 missile system radar guaranties to detect 2 (two) square centim Radar Cross Section (RCS) target flying at 2.5 mach at 15 m altitude from 50 km, this is so far the only radar in the world that should detect stealth aircraft. F 22s’ RCS should be 1 square centimeter when not useing its APF-77 radar when this radar is turned on F 22 is not stealth in certain wavelenght as antena is uncovered and it has around 1 square meter thus increasing F 22 RCS 100 000 times! However it is very hard to guess exact wavelenght in which it is opearating as this is frequently changed on each one of 1500 T/R segments). So different approach had to be chosen in order to challenge F 22.
I think cleaver approach was chosen by russian engineers (they did exactely what I was thinking about for years). They identified the weakest points of F 22. These are:
1. Its primary weapon AIM-120 AMMRAM.
2. Its Infra Red signature.
AMMRAM “issue”
1.1. There is couple of key tasks regarding evading any attacking missile (AMMARAM included):
1.1.1. To detect its start (that it was fired) - this is provided by SOAR system (System of missile start detection). Start of the missile is detected as far as 50km from Mig 35 from any direction. To determin where it was fired from and what is its predicted flight path. This is also provided by SOAR system.
1.1.2. To follow the missile approaching Mig 35. This can be provided by SOAR system up to 50km when engine is still working or up to 5km when flying only from persistence with engine burned out by detecting missile body itself. In the front hemisphere also powerfull ZHUK-AE active array radar offers an option of active defence against closeing AMMRAMS (its RCS is around 40 square centimetres). It can detect multiple missiles (up to 30) and six of them can be followed and attacked useing R-77 missiles. F 22 has 6 (six) AMMRAMS Mig 35 8 (eight) R 77.
1.1.3. Mid course position update (without it EFFECTIVE range of AMMRAM is around 20km only) of the target for AMMRAM can be detected by L-150 radio warfare device which deliveres that information - this is the best moment for Mig 35 to start to maneuvre and change position rapidly as next 10 seconds approx. AMMARM flies by inertia as pre-programed by transmission from the launching platform F 22.
1.1.4. 10 km from the Mig 35 AMMRAM turns on its active microwave millimetric readar seeker, its work is detected by L-150 receivers in the wing tips of Mig 35. This can jammed with the stand off towed jammer if Mig 35 flies in subsonic speed. There are in russia alternative jammers of AMMRAM under development with heavy funding from INDIA and IRAN.
1.1.5. APG 77 radar (from F 22) ilumination of Mig 35 can be detected by L 150 system or developed sytems that we do not have details of but it was anounced that they are under the intensive development soon to be finisheds.
1.1.6. ALL SIMULATED fights between F 22s and F 15s, F 16s lacked ALL of above mentioned
symptomps of REALY FIRRED AMMRAM - flash of the start, burning engine, flying hot object approaching attacked aircraft, midd course update of AMMRAM and millimetric microwave radar of the radar seeker in the last phase of AMMRAM flight.
So WE CAN THROW OUT OF THE WINDOW ALL THE RESULTS OF THIS TRAININGS when we talk about Mig 35 if we are clever. They are just IRRELEVANT against Mig 35.
Infra red signature.
2.1. OLS-UEM/OLS-K system can detect aircraft in fully passive mode from 45 km in rear hemisphere and from 15 km from front hemisphere against NON AFTERBURNER aircraft DURING THE NIGHT when useing Thermal Imager. During the day with the TV camera it can easilly be OVER 200Km from any angle depending on air condition! For afterburner aircraft it is at least 2 x longer (30km resp 90 km). For this unknown (it is not known wheather cooled or uncooled) of unknown generation of unknown wavelenght with sensor matrix from 320 x 256 points (only detail I know) it is good result. This sensor will be replaced as well as optics and software. I have personal experience with the 2nd generation cooled Thermal Imager 640x 420 points with laser rangefinder made by SELEX England (now there is 3rd generation which is even better). I detected car from 25 km in the night despite it should be only possible up to 10km. Many producers claim very conservative parameters to avoid further complains of the customers. If such advanced TI would be used (and once it certainly will) it would increase performance of such a system by approx 50 to 200% (I do not know russian detector in TI).
There is one significant disadvantage that could possibly increase the reach of this system against F 22 in front hemisphere of F 22 in the night! It is APG 77 radar active antena - if this thing would not be cooled down constantly by liquid cooler it would melt down - active antenas generate enormous heat, it is their only technical dissadvantage - other is their price.
The most important about Mig 35 is that for the first time in history there is on the market for enemies of the USA aircraft that under certain conditions can challange F 22. I mean when it was possible with basic Mig 29 in 1999 over Serbia to evade 8 AMMRAMS just useing pilots eyes old RWR and terrain it would certainly be easier withe the systems instaled on Mig 35 - no doubt about it. And from Serbia another example this F 16s or F 15s that were shooting at Serbians Mig 29s were like F 22 for Serbians Mig 29s they never knew where they were, just brif warnings of RWR and than maneouvres.
Also when used within the proper integrated Air defence network with good communication and passive detection devices in defender friendly terrain it could posses big threat against F 22. I am talking mainly about IRAN that is surrounded by mountains offten 4000 metres high, ideal for setting the traps for attackers.

Dopuna: 08 Nov 2009 22:25

sta kaze jedan ruja....

Dopuna: 08 Nov 2009 22:26

mislim da je text dovoljno razumljiv....da nije koriscen neki "teski"engleski...

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Djokkinen ::Otvorena tema za virtuelni dogfajt:

http://www.mycity-military.com/Avijacija-i-PVO/Virtuelni-dogfight.html

U ovoj temi se fokusirajte na činjenice i podatke koji dolaze iz validnih izvora i realnog života.
Kao sto vec rekoh dobra ideja, posto mi je to predlozeno, da ne bi gusili teme o Avionima. S druge strane tesko da cemo narednih godina saznati ista pouzdano sto se tice F-22. Jos jednom, stvarno dobra ideja i naslov je super, ja sam razmisljao nesto slicno ranije (neki takav topik) ali reko necu da izmisljam toplu vodu.

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mean_machine ::Postoje dve cene kod bilo kog aviona.

Prva cena je proizvodna.
Druga cena je cena celog projekta podeljenog na broj aviona.

Proizvodna cena Rafala je oko 60miliona $. Kada ga izvoze Francuzi na tu cenu dodaju cenu razvoja Rafale pa mu cena ode preko 100miliona dok ste rekli keks.

Kada je Japan bio zainteresovan da kupi F-22, pomenuta je cena od 250miliona $. Znaci to je cena u kojoj je uracunat i razvoj.

Sto se tice Amerike oni su tih 80milijardi potrosili na razvoj tako da njima sada F-22 kosta isto koliko je i proizvodna cena a to je 137M $. Zasto nece da kupe jos F-22? Mozda zato sto ce F-35 biti (barem za Ameriku i ucesnike u programu) smesno jeftin (kosta kao Gripen NG). Pa ce verovatno moci da kupe dva F-35 za jedan F-22.

Sto se tice Australije, grupa ljudi se zalaze za F-22 a ne vlada.
bas tako meanmachine
ali ako nema izvoza sav razvoj ide na proizvodnu cenu aviona.u ovom sluchaju je F22 razvijan samo iz budzeta USA,ne kao F35,tako da cena razvoja ide na cenu proizvodnje,a ako Japan ili Australija kupe F22 oni placaju kao sto si napisao i tu razvojnu cenu ,tako da se proizvodna cena za USAF smanjuje.Sve dok nema izvoza cena je ta proklamovana 137M$ plus cena razvoja podeljenno sa brojem proizvedenih letelica.cista rachunica,1+1 je uvek dva.

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Pare za razvoj su potrosne. Ako bi npr. odustali od kupovine jos Raptora to nikako ne bi vratilo te ulozene pare. Nabavkom jos Raptora deo para bi se vratio u budzet. Sto se tice izvoza to bi bilo najbolje resenje ali pitanje je da li bi bilo kupaca. Mislim da ni Japan ne bi dao onolike pare koje su mu trazili za Raptora.

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mean_machine ::Pare za razvoj su potrosne. Ako bi npr. odustali od kupovine jos Raptora to nikako ne bi vratilo te ulozene pare. Nabavkom jos Raptora deo para bi se vratio u budzet. Sto se tice izvoza to bi bilo najbolje resenje ali pitanje je da li bi bilo kupaca. Mislim da ni Japan ne bi dao onolike pare koje su mu trazili za Raptora.

Vrlo vjrrovatno, ali imaj u vidu da su svoj F-2 placali po 108mil. USD (FY04). Tako da im ni 140 mil. nebi trebalo biti van domasaja. a, inace kako sam surfo po internetu naisao sam na potencijalne lovce Japana u buducnosti: F-3 / F-36 te F-35D, u osnovi i jedan i dtugi su namjenjeni da zauzmu ulogu presretaca, pricemu im manevarske sposobnosti i nisu toliko vazne, a lice opasno na YF-23.

F-35D:
img150.imageshack.us/i/f35xme1.jpg/

F-3 / F-36:
bagera3005.deviantart.com/art/Northrop-Mitsubishi-F3-F-36A-98961267

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Japan nema sansu da dobije F22 za 140M$,vec je par puta napisano i zasto,pa ne bi trebalo neke stvari ponavljati po sto puta sa pogresnim podacima.cena za Japan je bila ranije navedena isto ovde.140M$ je cena za USAF.

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Da bog da da ce se to desiti da ikome prodaju F22, to je vrh za sada i njihove PVO, dok nesto drugo ne izmisle n vjerujem da ce ga ikome ponuditi po ne znam koje pare...

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Cena za Japan je preko $200 miliona.