Virtuelni dogfight

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Virtuelni dogfight

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http://www.fencecheck.com/content/index.php?title=......elt_Minsk

Citat:It is hard to not compare the MiG-29 with the F-16 when talking about an Air Force that owns both aircraft. When asked which one is better, Fulcrum drivers smile and Viper pilots are very quiet. There is no doubt that the F-16 is superior at long range, thanks to its long-range radar and modern radar-guided AIM-120 weapons. But in a dogfight, there is only one winner: the Smoker.Viper drivers almost pull their sticks out when trying to catch the highly maneuverable Fulcrums, or run away from them.

Evo sta kazu ljudi koji poseduju oba aviona Zagrljaj cisto da stavimo tacku na i Very Happy

P.S.

Citat:The YF-17 could achieve angles of attack of up to 34 deg in level flight and 63 deg could be reached in a zoom climb. The aircraft remained controllable at indicated airspeeds down to 20 knots. Northrop consequently claimed that their lightweight fighter contender had no angle-of-attack limitations, no control limitations, and no departure tendencies within the flight envelope used for the evaluation.

Ipak nista od "kobre" Wink



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sivisoko ::Evo sta kazu ljudi koji poseduju oba aviona Zagrljaj cisto da stavimo tacku na i Very Happy


Zaista, evo sto kazu

The following is an excerpt from an article at Lockeed's Code One Magazine web site about an exercise between American F-16s & German MiG-29s. Great anecdotal info on the MiG-29's flight model and cockpit considering we can now fly it:

Citat:The most impressive aspect of the Fulcrum's performance for the American pilots was its low-speed maneuverability. "In a low-speed fight, fighting the Fulcrum is similar to fighting an F-18 Hornet," explained Capt. Mike McCoy of the 510th. "But the Fulcrum has a thrust advantage over the Hornet. An F-18 can really crank its nose around if you get into a slow-speed fight, but it has to lose altitude to regain the energy, which allows us to get on top of them. The MiG has about the same nose authority at slow speeds, but it can regain energy much faster. Plus the MiG pilots have that forty-five-degree cone in front of them into which they can fire an Archer and eat you up."

The off-boresight missile, as described in the opening scenario, proved to be a formidable threat, though not an insurmountable one. "Some of their capabilities were more wicked than we originally thought," said McCoy. "We had to respect the helmet-mounted sight, which made our decisions to anchor more difficult. In other words, when I got close in, I had to consider that helmet-mounted sight. Every time I got near a Fulcrum's nose, I was releasing flares to defeat an Archer coming off his rail."

"Before coming here, some of our pilots may have thought of the MiG's helmet-mounted sight as an end-all to a BFM fight," explained Lt. Col. Gary West, commander of the 510th. "We have found that it is not as lethal as we had expected.

We encountered some positions-particularly in an across-the-circle shot or a high-low shot and in a slow-speed fight-where a Fulcrum pilot can look up forty-five degrees and take a shot while his nose is still off. That capability has changed some of the pilots' ideas on how they should approach a MiG-29 in a neutral fight. Below 200 knots, the MiG-29 has incredible nose-pointing capability down to below 100 knots. The F-16, however, enjoys an advantage in the 200 knot-plus regime. At higher speeds, we can power above them to go to the vertical. And our turn rate is significantly better. By being patient and by keeping airspeed up around 325 knots, an F-16 can bring the MiG-29 to its nose. But the pilot must still be careful of the across-the-circle shot with that helmet-mounted sight.

"We have done very well on neutral BFM engagements," continued West. "We have tried single and two-circle fights, depending on how much lead turn we had at the merge. Without exception, we have been able to use finesse or power to an advantage after at least a couple of turns. I don't think any F-16 pilot has gotten defensive and stayed there. As always, and this applies to any airplane, success depends on who is flying."

Three pilots from the 510th received backseat rides in one of the JG-73's two-seat MiG-29 trainers. Capt. Sparrow was one of them. "The MiG is harder to fly than the F-16," said Sparrow. "The Soviet airframe is great, but the avionics are not user friendly. After flying in the backseat of the Fulcrum, I got a feel for how spoiled we are in the F-16. I always felt good about the F-16, but I wouldn't trade flying the F-16 for any other aircraft, foreign or domestic.

"The Fulcrum doesn't have the crisp movements of an F-16," Sparrow continued. "You need to be an octopus in the MiG-29 to work the avionics. Those German pilots have it tough. Just to get a simple lock on and fire a missile may take a half dozen hands-off switches or so. We can do the same with a flick of the thumb while we are looking at the HUD. F-16 pilots also have a significant sight advantage. A couple of hundred feet advantage can make a difference in air-to-air combat; the actual difference is more significant than that. MiG-29 pilots have a tough time checking their six o'clock. Their canopy rail is higher. They can lose sight of us even when flying BFM."

"Their visibility is not that good," agreed McCoy, one of the other two pilots who enjoyed a spin in the Fulcrum. "Their disadvantage is a real advantage for us. F-16 pilots sit high in the cockpit. All the MiG-29 pilots who sat in our cockpit wanted to look around with the canopy closed. They were impressed that they could turn around and look at the tail and even see the engine can."

"Besides visibility, I expected better turning performance," McCoy continued. "The MiG-29 is not a continuous nine-g machine like the F-16. I tried to do some things I normally do in an F-16. For example, I tried a high-AOA guns jink. I got the Fulcrum down to about 180 knots and pulled ninety degrees of bank and started pulling heavy g's. I then went to idle and added a little rudder to get the jet to roll with ailerons. The pilot took control away from me in the middle of these maneuvers because the airplane was about to snap. I use the F-16's quick roll rate like this all the time with no problem.

"I also tried to do a 250-knot loop," McCoy recalled. "I went to mil power and stabilized. As I went nose high, I asked for afterburner. I had to hamfist the airplane a little as I approached the top of the loop. I was still in afterburner at about 15,000 feet and the jet lost control. The nose started slicing left and right. I let go of the stick and the airplane righted itself and went down. It couldn't finish the loop. In the F-16, we can complete an entire loop at 250 knots."

Like Sparrow, McCoy climbed out of the MiG-29 cockpit feeling better about the F-16, especially its automation. "The biggest instrument in the MiG-29 cockpit is the clock," McCoy said. "It took me a while to understand this. But a large clock is needed to keep track of the time after launching a missile. When they launch a missile, they have to consider their shot range and the type of missile they are shooting and estimate how long it will take to impact before firing. When they take a five-mile Alamo shot, for example, they have to calculate mentally the time required for the missile to reach its target so their radar can illuminate it for the duration. They fire and watch until they know when they can turn away. That procedure is a real disadvantage if they're flying against someone who shot a missile at them at about the same time. "F-16 pilots don't have to think about these things," McCoy continued. "We have great automation. When we launch a missile, the airplane performs all the calculations and displays a countdown on the head-up display for us. When we're within ten miles, we want our eyes out of the cockpit looking for flashes or smoke from an adversary. That's why our head-up display is focused to infinity. We can view information without refocusing our eyes to scan the horizon. Inside of ten miles, Fulcrum pilots are moving their hands around flipping about six switches, some they have to look at. I am moving one, maybe two switches, without taking my hands off the throttle and stick."

German Fulcrum pilots realize the limitations, and advantages, of their aircraft. "If you define an F-16 as a third-generation fighter, it is not fair to speak of the MiG-29 as a third-generation aircraft because of its avionics," said Lt. Col. Manfred Skeries, the deputy commander of the JG-73. "Aerodynamics, now, are something different." Skeries is the former commander of all East German fighter forces and the first German pilot to fly the MiG-29. His comments came after he received his first flight in the F-16.

"The MiG-29's avionics are a shortcoming," admitted Capt. Michael Raubbach, a Fulcrum pilot of the JG 73. "Its radar-warning and navigational equipment are not up to Western standards. The Russian idea of hands-on throttle and stick is not the same as it is in the West. It is true that we have to look in the cockpit a lot to flip switches. And the way information is provided and the accuracy with which it is provided-in the navigational equipment in particular-doesn't allow full employment in the Western concept.

"Our visibility is not as good as an F-16 or even an F-15," Raubbach continued. "We can't see directly behind us. We have to look out the side slightly to see behind us, which doesn't allow us to maintain a visual contact and an optimum lift vector at the same time. This shortcoming can be a real problem, especially when flying against an aircraft as small as the F-16. But as a German, I can't complain about the MiG's visibility. The aircraft offers the greatest visibility in our air force."

There are NO confirmed or unconfirmed reports of any MiG-29 kills in any theater of conflict, while at least 8 have been shot down by other fighters



Procitaj pa zakljuci u kojem bi radje letio Wink

Tekst za link



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  • lacko  Male
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Dovoljna mi je tvoja referenca za ovaj tekst da ga bacim u kantu...citao ga ja odavno,na sve nacine pokusavaju da operu svoje nedostatke i komplekse....ako nastavis ovako moracu i ja da se ukljucim da te malo naucim i da ti razbijem zablude...

Nista strasno,nisi prvi....aj ziveli

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u dogfightu, u MiGu29, u BVRu, u MiGu29SMT....dokle vise da se tupi o ovome....oces da ti organizujemo let da se uveris? Mr. Green

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lacko ::Dovoljna mi je tvoja referenca za ovaj tekst da ga bacim u kantu

ali naravno, kad se citiraju ruski izvori, onda nema problema sa vjerodostojnoscu Laughing

Citat:ako nastavis ovako moracu i ja da se ukljucim da te malo naucim i da ti razbijem zablude...

samo naprijed... Very Happy

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@DrBuzz, nemci nisu rusi...

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Mercury ::@DrBuzz, nemci nisu rusi...

Pa slobodno daj link gdje njemci govore da je njihov 29 superioran americkom F-16.

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@DrBuzz

Citat:Zaista, evo sto kazu. . .Procitaj pa zakljuci u kojem bi radje letio

Ja sam procitao taj tekst, ali izgleda da ti nisi onaj koji sam ja postavio?
Dakle, to su izjave poljskih pilota , koji nemaju razloga da fovorizuju jedan ili drugi avion iz patriotskih, politickih ili bilo kojih drugih razloga.
Sledeca stvar sto se tice "nemackih" migova je da su njihove letne karakteristike i elektronika degradirane, ali to opet nije sprecavalo onog nemackog pilota da napravi gomilu"kill-ova".
I konacno, sve one negativne stvari koje zaista postoje kod dvadeset devetke su odavno resene, pa cak i ona losa preglednost iz kokpita ( Mig-29K i Mig-35 imaju novi poklopac kabine )

P.S.

Mozda nisi primetio, ali u tekstu koji si postavio se nigde ne spominje da F-16 ima bilo kakvu manu.
Toliko o objektivnosti Wink

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sivisoko ::Mozda nisi primetio, ali u tekstu koji si postavio se nigde ne spominje da F-16 ima bilo kakvu manu.
Toliko o objektivnosti Wink


U usporedbi sa njemackim 29, F-16C je oda savrsentstvu. Laughing

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Predlog urednistvu, da se u okviru sekcije avijacije postavi podforum cija bi funkcija bila sandbox. Naravno sa prikladnim nazivom koji nece biti pezorativan, niti ce vredjati ucesnike.
S vremena na vreme na ovom forumu se pojave strucnjaci koji rade u avio industriji, radili su, radice. inzenjeri, mehanicari, piloti.
Bilo bi izuzetno kada bi takve clanove zadrzali i motivisali da diskutuju, a takve diskusije su vanredno vredne i plodne, resene pubertetske emotivnosti. Nazalost mnogo tema u kojima se desava nesto sto je potpuno normalno, da se mladi - prepucavaju kao deca i uce kao deca - nazalost demotivise ozbiljne sagovornike da ucestvuju u forumu.

Na ovaj nacin nista ne bi izgubili, a dobili bi sansu da strucni ljudi ukrste argumente i izloze svoja misljenja. A oni manje strucni jos vise nauce, a da im se ne uskrati mogucnost diskusije o sosnovama kroz sandbox teme.

Apropo virtuelnog duela, motka ima dve strane, svaka napadacka taktika ima svoju odbranbenu protivtaktiku. Amerikanci su od Nemaca preuzeli izuzetnu vrlinu pedantnosti i planiranja, proucavanja protivnika. Pa tako je MiG29 izucen sa svih mogucih strana. Ne postoji savrseno oruzje pa tako i 29 nije nepobediv u bliskoj borbi. Citao sam dnevnik usaf pilota koji na MiG29 ima vise sati nego nasi aktivni piloti. On je potpuno siguran, znajuci sve mane i prednosti da sa najnovijim blokom f-16 ne moze izgubiti od npr. 9-12...
Ali naivno je verovati da Rusi slicno ne izucavaju americke lovce. Lepo je zakljuciti da preko 400kts f-16 dominira u bliskoj borbi, ali da bi se to desilo protivnik mora da vam dozvoli da se borite na toj brzini, odredjenoj visini, itd...

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