Chengdu J-10

• 0Niko još nije pohvalio poruku.
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

Pa naravno ljudi, ovo vam je najbolji primer "objektivnog" forumašenja, ne zato što je antibody ne objektivan, već zato što je patriJota. Tako je to...eto kaže da im je čak i kongres USA(što je neistina, barem ne verziju koju je pakistan potraživao))odobrio kupnju novih F-16 ali su se oni eto odlučili za J-10...isto je i sa amerikancima, isto je sa Rusima...englezima, francuzima. svako je svakog pobediJo sa 10:0 u "gostima" a sve je to preneo "Ruski, Pakistanski, Američki....poručnik iskusni letač...koji ni u snu ne bi davao lažne informacije"

• 0Niko još nije pohvalio poruku.
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

ANTIBODY ::pakistan has an ongoing 5th gen programme , disclosed recently but its not jft

[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]
Some of us are familiar with pakistan defence forum.

• 0Niko još nije pohvalio poruku.
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

FC-1 / J-10 Pairing
There have been various comparisons between the FC-1 & J-10 pairing, including the F-16 & F-15 pairing and the F-20 & F-16. However, one comparison pairing still to be analyzed is the MiG-29 and Su-27 pairing. If you think about it, the FC-1 is the equivalent of a single engined MiG-29 and the J-10 a single engined Su-27. The difference between them is relatively (and admittedly not absolutely) the same. Given that the modern equivalents of these planes – the MiG-35 and the Su-35 are even more closely matched in terms of performance, radar capability and range, the point of painting the FC-1 & J-10 pairing black seems perhaps a bit more tenuous.If we compare the initial JF-17 with the initial F-16A Block-10/15 aircraft, JF-17 is a superior aircraft, compared to the Block-30 it is equally effective





J-10 Vs F-16 Technical Comparison

The F-16 was designed from the outset as a dog-fighter. The moderate sweep of the wings and aspect ratios were ideal for this. The trade-off however, was greater supersonic resistance. The thrust offered by the two engine options on the F-16 is impressive even to this day. TWR in air combat is about 1.15, ensuring impressive climbing rates and sustained turn rates. As noted, the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance, not only in its wing design but also in its fixed air intakes. In supersonic flight, engine thrust is lost. While it can reach Mach 2.0, pragmatically it has poor supersonic performance.

While the F-16 sacrificed supersonic performance for subsonic dogfighting, the J-10 did not make the same sacrifice. Thus, while when the F-16 was designed, turning dogfights were what was projected as the bread and butter of air combat, when the J-10 was being designed, the BVR era had arrived (or re-arrived). The J-10s aerodynamic design, including wing design and inlet design, take this into account. For instance, the J-10 visibly has greater wing sweep and a variable inlet. With the J-10B, a DSI intake. While the J-10B sacrifices maximum theoretical top speeds with its DSI intakes, for all relevant combat speeds, it gives the J-10 superior performance.

Under modern BVR conditions and higher altitude combat, the J-10 is significantly superior to the F-16. This is also reflected in its higher instantaneous turn rates. The Mirage-2000s have been a point of major concern both for the Pakistanis and the Turkish air forces, because of these aerodynamic issues, despite the Mirages weak engines. The Greeks, who operated both the Mirage 2000 and F-16C considered the F-16 to be better at low altitude, low speed, hard turning fights, and Mirage 2000 to be superior at hi-hi.The F-16 would have to attempt to survive the first merge in an air combat scenario, which becomes increasingly suicidal with high off-bore sight missiles. BVR further compounds these problems for the F-16s. In previous eras, flying hi and fast was fine, but you often had to come down low to engage a low flying enemy aircraft. Today, that becomes less relevant with longer range BVR missiles and look-down shoot-down capabilities.

JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation - providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots.

The F-16 has also been adding weight over time and attempting to counterbalance this with increased engine thrust. However, since wing area remained the same, maneuverability has been sacrificed. Higher wing loading is particularly detrimental for higher altitude maneuverability. The J-10 on the other hand, has all the wing area it could ever need with a delta canard layout.

The newer block F-16s however, are great for low altitude air-to-ground missions. The high wing loading favors low fliers and the moderate wing sweep helps handling at lower speeds often necessary during ordnance delivery. The J-10 is thus not ideal for the CAS role. However, because of the range and payload advantages, the J-10 can be considered an effective deep striker. CAS was never a pressing need for the PLAAF, and the PAF has the JF-17 which is ideal for that role.

some nice posts on the need of three 4.5 generation fighters -- posts of 2009
[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]
[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]
[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]
[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]

• 0Niko još nije pohvalio poruku.
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

Please read everything I wrote before you get angry and reply just out of spite or to "defend" something.

mean_machine ::USAF didnt had amraam in 1980' and AIM-9M was their best missile up to XXI centry.

So? They had other missiles, like the AIM-7 Sparrow and several improvements of it until they introduced the AMRAAM. And yes, the Americans used the 9M for a long time, what did China use when they introduced the AIM-9L and AIM-7M? But as I said, the Russians had the R-73 which is much better (even the 9M is better) than this Chinese modernization of the AA-2 Atoll.

Citat:
We can say USAF didnt had color display in cockpit of their fighters in 1980's.

Irrelevant. Installing a 27inch LCDisplay in a Mig-17 won't make it any better. The same way, replacing the displays in a F-22 with old instruments won't make the plane any worse, it will still be the best fighter aircraft around.
What I mean to say is:
Advancements in the development of specialized technology and engineering are one thing, the integration of things that are part of the general evolution of technology are another, LCDisplays fall under the second category. They just were not around back then, technologically, while they are readily available today.

The important thing is that the airplane is good and matches todays airplanes from the rest of the world. And the J-10 does not provide anything that the rest of the world didn't already have 30 years ago when China was still "modernizing" the Mig-19 and tried to make it into a "cheaper Mig-21", like they did 10 years ago when they were trying to make some outdated aircraft like the Mig-21 copy J-7 into "a cheap F-16A", 5 years ago when they tried to make a poor man's "cheap F-16C" or today when they try to make a "cheap F-16 Block 52" (introduced in 1991, for those who don't know how old that plane already is), and all of that with foreign engines...sorry, but the world has moved on, the F-16A is not relevant anymore, and neither are the first versions of the Mig-29, Mig-21bis, some early Su-27 or any planes from the early 90s. If the J-10 had come out in 1982 we might have been impressed, but it's 2011 and counting, by the time the J-10B comes out, the F-22 will have been in active service for 10 years, and what, I am supposed to be nice and act impressed because of their early 90s fighter which is 20 years late to the party as not to offend them?

That is just usual propaganda for the Chinese (and Pakistani) internal use, to tell their own people how great they are and that they match "insert big name of foreign system, but don't pay attention to the fact that that system has been improved 5 times since and isn't produced anymore in the way that you have now managed to match". We had an authoritarian dictatorship as well, we know how the song goes, we, too, have had the best in the world/as good as the best in the world of everything.
I don't know why we from outside China should pay any attention to their internal-propaganda fairytales and why we should pretend to be impressed and amazed at "their accomplishments". I don't have to be nice to "China", I don't care if "China" gets sad because I state the obvious. That is just the way it is.

Leonardo ::@mareCar
You are claiming something that isn't true. J-10B's definitely '90 and beyond technology.

The B is not in service, yet. When it has entered service in a few years, we can talk about whether China has arrived in the 1990s or not.

Citat:When compared to 3rd (4th) generation fighter jets with some new features like delta-canard configuration, DSI air intake

Those mean nothing. Those are just buzzwords, they don't actually make the plane any more technologically potent or advanced. This is just a continuation of the same talk as improvements on Mig-21s by installing a few LCD displays etc..

Citat:if I'm not wrong stealthier two-piece bubble canopy... The airplane carries its load outside, stealthy does not exist.

Citat:It remains to be seen when will they finish AESA radar and also bring out version with composite materials.

No one even knows if the radar is even AESA or PESA.

And people, don't get me wrong (as you always do), I have nothing against Chinese hardware or advancement (obviously any of the newer planes would be incredible for the Serbian Air Force), but touting every little step the Chinese make as if it is some sort of achievement is like watching a race and cheering for the retarded guy with leg braces who is 2 laps behind everyone like he is winning the race just because he has just completed his first round. It can only be done out of pity. I will wait with the cheering until they deserve it, so that it can be honest.

archer ::Smorili ste sa engleskim.

Dabome.

lacko ::archer ::Smorili ste sa engleskim.
Ispade ovim pakistancima j10 i jf17 daleko nadmocniji od f22 i f35,kako su krenuli

Sad ce ovoj Mig-21 na steroidima da naprave kockast nos i da nam pricaju bajke kako je postao stealth...

• 0Niko još nije pohvalio poruku.
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

Uloguj se preko Facebooka da bi video sliku:

jft carries PL-5E/PL-9C/AIM-9M/AIM-9P short range missiles of paf -- even paf f6 and f7 are hooked up to fire aim9





china's copy of mig21 was not f6 , rather it was f7 [which is further divided into generations]
[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]

[Link mogu videti samo ulogovani korisnici]
this is an artists visualization of prototype1 of fc1

dsi decreased the frontal rcs of jft prototype 4 by 35% as compared to jft protoype1 not to mention it also reduced the wieght of the fighter


the paf and its sales are rarely publisized in the pak media -- most people have no clue of paf's developments

paf cant afford to buy 475 fifth generation fighters for its fleet -- and neither does iaf plan to dump the lca , mirage, rafale fighters in favour of 600+ fifth generation fighters

''J-10 does not provide anything that the rest of the world didn't already have 30 years ago ''

f22 and j10b are of different categories and you can post your views in the j20 thread

• 1Ovo se svidja korisniku: Leonardo
  
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

Mare

Moras ipak priznati da su Kinezi sa J-10 napravili veliki prodor, od lovca 2. generacije kakav je J-7 stigli su sa JF-17 i J-10A do 3. a sa J-10B do 4. generacije. I to za sve 10 i kusur godina. Ko se nadao na primer 1990. da ce Kinezi ovoliko napredovati? I toliko smanjiti jaz koji je postojao izmedju ruskih, zapadnih i kineskih aviona.

Ako J-10B bude imao sve sto Kinezi kazu, bice jednak sa svim borbenim avionima njegove klase, dakle avioni 4 i 4.5 generacije. Nista se osim T-50 i J-20 (ako ovo nije samo tehnoloski demonstrator) ne moze i nece moci u skorijoj buducnosti uporedjivati sa F-22. Eventualno ako EF i Rafale dobiju u medjuvremenu neka dodatna poboljsanja (a izgleda da ce da ih dobiju) oni ce se priblitizi 5-toj generaciji.

Kazes to sko Kinezi i Pakistanci pricaju je propaganda. Mozda i jeste ali sta rade Amerikanci i Evropljani? Toliko hvale EF i Rafale i Gripen da smatraju akciju u Libiji relevantnom za dokazivanje njihovih aviona. Pa onda razbili smo EF sa 10:0, F-22 sa 5:1 itd. Sto bi Kinezi bili drugaciji?

• 0Niko još nije pohvalio poruku.
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

@mareCar

Odluci se vec jednom gde pripada J-10A. Te pominjes rane 80' pa kasnije pises o F-16 blok 50/52 za koji sam kazes da se pojavio pocetkom 90'.

Sto se tice J-10B, ako bude imao AESA radar moze se porediti sa japanskim F-2 koji u sluzbu usao 2000. Dakle pocetak prosle decenije a ne 90'.

Naravno da kasne za drugima to nije sporno. Ali tvrditi da je J-10A u rangu americkih aviona iz ranih 80' ili da J-10B sa aesa radarom ce biti u rangu americkih aviona iz 90' e to jeste vrlo sporno.

• 0Niko još nije pohvalio poruku.
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

Svakako će biti J-10B avion sa najnovijom avionikom. Samo problem je u tome što će biti ta najnovija avionika na nivou američke ispred 10 godina što uopšte nije loše, dok će biti oružani sitemi još i lošiji. Kinezima nužno treba neka Meteor raketa da je iskopiraju i približe se zapadnim standardima.

• 1Ovo se svidja korisniku: carpbuster
  
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

Uloguj se preko Facebooka da bi video sliku:

Dva sa razlicitim motorima.

• 0Niko još nije pohvalio poruku.
  Registruj se da bi pohvalio/la poruku!

archer ::Ja ga sanjam sa NPO Saturn S-117S
Namerno nisam naveo ruski motor pošto kako stvari trenutno stoje ne očekujem da će ga prodati. Pretpostavljam da ce Kinezi u narednih 10 godina završiti motor potiska 15 tona.

@svima...
Mislim da treba objektivno sagledati celokupnu situaciju na svetskom tržištu aviona. Danas mnoge zemlje kupuju poslednje verzije F-15/16, F/A-18SH, MiG-29 i Su-27/30 koje će služiti narednih 30 do 40 godina. Mali broj zemalja se nalazi u redu za nabavku F-35 i PAK-FA, a opet mnoge od njih će zadržati avione 4.5 generacije u službi. Prvi primer takve prakse su ili će biti vazduhoplovstva SAD, Rusije i Indije.

Dalje treba realno sagleda mogucnosti Pakistana. Poseduju veliku vojsku ali nisu regionalna sila poput Kine i Indije koje imaju tendenciju da postanu možda i globalne sile za nekoliko decenija. Čime raspolaže PAF i kakve su im mogucnosti danas? Kada se pogleda njihova flota a potpom sta donose Jf-17 i J-10B, za relativno male pare u poredjenju sa dostupnim zapadnim avionima, oni dobijaju nove mogućnosti. Zamenu flote starih Miraža sa Jf-17 ja vidim ko veliki napredak. Naredne verzije će imati OLS, a već blok I ima bolje BVR mogućnosti.

Možemo ići stavku po stavku i videti gde generacijski pripada jedan, a gde drugi avion. Po meni J-10A treba porediti sa MiG-29, F-16 i Mirage 2000 s' početka '90. Naravno da ga ne možemo porediti sa F/A-18SH kada uzme u obzir racunar, avionika, radar itd...