Virtuelni dogfight

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Virtuelni dogfight

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  • Pridružio: 23 Okt 2010
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@Abudabi

Citat:Kada se radi modifikacija postojeceg projekta i zmaja, onda se cine neki kompromisi. Veci nego pri projektovanju novog aviona. Ne postoji generalna LERX-KANAR kombinacija, jer svaki kanar i strejk su prica za sebe... Pa tako i oni na Su27 zmajevima...

Ako pazljivije procitas sta sam napisao videces da ja upravo o kompromisima i govorim time sto sam rekao da pruza vise prednosti u odnosu na mane.
Za mene to nije los kompromis.
Smisao tog primera se odnosio na moju sumnju u vezi LERX-a ispred kanara kod rafala, koji postoji kod SU-30MKI i nista vise.

Citat:To je opste pravilo ako pricamo o krilu. Posto je tema kanar i to upravljacki/kontorlni, osobine i uticaj zavise ne samo od ugla dijedra, vec od polozaja upravljackog kanara.

Apsolutno se slazem se sa tobom!
Ono sto mi sledece pada na pamet je "pucanje" vorteksa pod odredjenim napadnim uglovima, a ono se desava nekoliko metara od pocetka vorteksa, sto bi u slucaju EF2000 bilo bas negde ispod krila?
E sad, da li ce pod tim napadnim uglovima vorteks biti ispod krila, ja ne znam, verovatno da nece, ali su poznati efekti koje je to "pucanje" imalo na vertikalne stabilizatore kod F-18!
Ono sto je meni intrigantno u slucaju eurofajtera je sta se desava sa vorteksima i koji oni imajnu efekat na ponasanje aviona, jer je jasno da su konstruktori namerno izabrali to resenje iz nekog, njima poznatog razloga?!

Dopuna: 02 Dec 2010 1:03




Na ovoj fotografiji se vidi da je LERX zadrzao svoju funkciju bez obzira na postavku kanara, odnosno on i dalje vrsi opstrujavanje krila vorteksom, dok kanar ne dozvoljava da krilo dostigne kriticni napadni ugao.
Nedostaci ove konfiguracije se ogledaju u povecanoj masi, dodatnom otporu vazduha i pogorsanju RCS karakteristika.
Ali sto se tice manevarskih karakteristika to resenje je bolje, sto se moze videti i na primeru SU-33, koji ima bolju kontrolu na malim brzinama i vecim napadnim uglovima, sto je i presudno za sletanje na nosac aviona!



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Boskovic ::Nadam se da nije bio klip Su-35 Very Happy Twisted Evil Mashinaaaa

extra je i video i muzika Ziveli ,mislim da je bio ,insert iz ruskog` Top gana `,sa naslovom `Mirror wars` Wink na 0:26 polece SU-34 a ne SU- 35 Mr. Green

Dopuna: 02 Dec 2010 20:10

bez broja i bilo kakve oznake Mr. Green



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  • zixo  Male
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To je fotomontaza, inace naravno Su-37.

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  • Boskovic
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Novosti su iz 19 novembra nisam primetio da su bile pa reko ajd da prikazem.
Second Wave Of Russian Orders From China
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?i.....el=defense

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ovo je pravi SU-35UB ,mora da je fotomontaza ili ? Confused

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pravi pravacati,prelistaj jedno 20str unazad pa ces naci o cemu se radi.

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Aj opet...

Nije fotomontaza, pricali smo. Bilo snimanje filma gde je koriscen UB. Na zemlji je radjen snimak katapultiranja pilota. Imaju slike i toga.

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Dopuna: 04 Dec 2010 22:27

Posto se ne radi samo o T-50 ili F-22 najpostenije je postaviti ovde;

As one expert recently noted: “In this modern era of stealth combat, there are two types of fighters: stealth fighters and targets.” Similarly, the commander in chief of the Russian navy stated that “it would be impossible to win contemporary and future wars without air and space supremacy. Whoever understands this is on the right path.” Mikhail Pogosyan says that “the most important thing is stealth to enemy radar, which allows the aircraft to approach enemy positions without being
noticed. Viewing the U.S. and NATO as potential opponents in a future war, Russia has designed the PAK FA to compete with the F-22 and to devastate formations of F-35 stealth fighters.

It takes more than technology to make an advanced fighter classified as fifth-generation, including pilot skill and training, aircraft, and tactics. It remains to be seen whether Russia will develop advanced operational concepts and fighter doctrine to employ the PAK FA. If this occurs, it is possible that the twin-engine F-22, which was devised as an air superiority fighter, would perhaps be the only credible match for the PAK FA. Even if the F-22 proves superior, PAK FAs may still pose a formidable threat. F-35s, which were partly designed to serve as force multipliers for the F-22, may be vulnerable to PAK FA attack. Although the U.S. plans to build more than 2,000 F-35s, the numerical advantage of the F-35 fleet could potentially be offset by the PAK FA’s larger weapon capacity, especially if it proves technologically superior.

In addition, the PAK FA could pose a threat to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-35C Lightning II squadrons operating from America’s aircraft carriers. The Russian navy plans to deploy 15–20 naval PAK FAs on its aircraft carrier after it is modernized, perhaps by 2020. Russia may also seek to reduce the numerical advantage of the overall U.S. fighter fleet by building large numbers of a lighter version of the PAK FA, a possible equivalent to the F-35. In a dogfight, U.S. Air Force models predict that small formations of F-22 fighters would prevail over far larger numbers of fourth-generation enemy fighters because the F-22’s superior stealth would give it a substantial advantage. However, how the F-22 would fare against the PAK FA is unclear.

The PAK FAs may ultimately match the F-22s in capability and possibly outnumber them. It is also unclear how mixed formations of F-22s and more numerous F-35s would fare against PAK FA formations or against combinations of PAK FAs and lighter variants. The Department of Defense needs to develop a comprehensive understanding of the capabilities of the various Russian platforms to accurately gauge the threat to U.S. planes and to develop appropriate responses.

The F-35 normally carries two beyond-visualrange AMRAAM51 missiles and two JDAMguided bombs in its two internal weapon bays. It could carry two additional AMRAAMs or AIM-9X Sidewinders under its wings, but this would make it less stealthy. Based on the current capabilities of Russian airborne fire-control radars, the PAK FA’s active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar can simultaneously detect, track, and target six to eight F-35s with impaired stealth, offsetting the advantage of the additional weapons.

The PAK FA and F-22 differ from the F-35 in that both can carry two short-range air-to-air missiles in internal side compartments, which significantly reduces their RCS and enables them to maintain their stealth outlines, even when carrying additional weapons. The F-35’s engine nozzle may give it a stealth disadvantage versus the PAK FA. This means a PAK FA flying high above an F-35 could potentially detect and track the F-35’s nozzle. In a battle against an F-35 formation, the PAK FA’s stealth and radar would likely be significant force multipliers.

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TOP GUN ::Aj opet...

Nije fotomontaza, pricali smo. Bilo snimanje filma gde je koriscen UB. Na zemlji je radjen snimak katapultiranja pilota. Imaju slike i toga.

ok ,hvala ti Top Gun ,mada je neko pominjao da ovaj UB i nije koriscen nego SU-27 UB pa kad sam video ovu sliku e tek mi onda nista nije bilo jasno Confused

Dopuna: 03 Dec 2010 15:07

evo tih fotki




Dopuna: 03 Dec 2010 17:33

neko je pominjao prototipove SU- 27M ( 35) ,evo ga prvi 701


Dopuna: 03 Dec 2010 21:19

a tu je i 710 Wink

703


Dopuna: 06 Dec 2010 14:03

SU-35 kao robot Wink

jos jedna slicka 703

708

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Ako sam nesto naucio baveci se pticama grabljivicama, jeste da prednost u visini i brzini predstavlja jedan od preduslova za uspesan lov, jer pod tim okolnostima ti biras uslove ulaska u borbu i imas jasniji pregled situacije pored kinematickih prednosti.

Mislim da F-22 nije do sada imao pravog takmaca u toj oblasti, jer je on optimiziran prevashodno svojim oblikom i oblikom krila za manevrisanje pri velikim brzinama i na velikim visinama.
Na taj nacin je moguce maksimalno iskoristiti super-krstarenje.
Takodje nosenje ubojnih sredstava u unutrasnjosti trupa pomaze poboljsanju kinematickih karakteristika u odnosu na klasicne lovce.
Druga prednost koju on ima u odnosu na vecinu drugih lovaca je i vektorisani potisak. ( The biggest problem with the implementation of the TVC nozzle concept, that has still not be resolved by the Americans, was to provide the nozzle reversal joint with a seal strong enough to prevent outblast of the gases with a temperature of almost 2,000 oC and pressure of 5 to 7 kgf/cm2. The AL-31F and AL-31FU engines are fully interchangeable; in other words, all the derivatives of the Su-27 and the base aircraft may be powered by the AL-31FU engine. As well as powering the Su-37 fighter, the AL-31FU engine will be first installed on the Su-30MK multirole two-seater fighter)
Ono sto je interesantno je da vektorisani potisak ima isto toliko bitnu ulogu na velikim visinama i brzinama, a ne samo kod "post stall" manevara.
Za isti napadni ugao , na vecim visinama potreban je veci otklon upravljackih povrsina u odnosu na manje visine, sto samo po sebi dovodi do povecanog "trim drag"-a zbog cega dolazi do gubitka brzine i povecanja radijusa zaokreta. Nestabilna platforma i vetorisani potisak u velikoj meri umanjuju potrebu za velikim otklonom upravljacih povrsina pruzajuci bitne prednosti na tim rezimima leta u odnosu na avione koji nemaju tu mogucnost!
Sve ovo govori da ce pri manevrisanju F-22 sporije gubiti visinu i brzinu u odnosu na druge lovce , sto i jeste jedna od najpozeljnijih karakteristika jednog lovca!
PAK FA je takodje konstruisan sa tim karakteristikama na umu, a uz to mislim da je aerodinamicki superiorniji od F-22.
Pored toga moze da nosi vecu kolicinu goriva i oruzja, veci broj umrezenih radara koji funkcionisu u vise frekventnih opsega uz verovatno vecu snagu, optoelektronske senzore, itd.
Ipak PAK FA tek treba da se dokaze, dok F-22 jos nije imao borbeno iskustvo.

Evo nekih interesnatnih podataka vezanih za F-35
With a nominal payload of 2,000 lb of AAMs the USAF F-35 yields a combat thrust/weight ratio around 1.1:1 which is competitive against a modestly loaded F-16, F/A-18A/C or Eurocanard, but with a typically better combat radius or combat gas allowance - however it is not in the class of an F-15C let alone F-22A. Therefore the F-35 should provide competitive acceleration and climb performance at similar weights to the F-16, F/A-18A/C or Eurocanards. With the upper portions of the split inlets likely to produce good vortices, the F-35 should provide respectable high alpha performance and handling, especially if flight control software technology from the F-22A was exploited fully
In the absence of published hard numbers for supersonic acceleration, energy bleed and persistence performance, the only reasonable conclusion is that the F-35 is likely to be competitive against the teen series and Eurocanards in combat configuration but decisively inferior to the F-22A.
If used as an air defence interceptor and air superiority fighter, the F-35 will deliver similar capabilities to the F-16C/B60, F/A-18E/F and Eurocanards at similar weights - its limitations in thrust/weight ratio and thus climb rate/acceleration, and wing optimisation for transonic regimes, will limit its ability to engage high performance supersonic threats by virtue of basic aerodynamic performance
The F-35 is clearly out of its league against the F-22A in all cardinal performance parameters, with the exception of its bomb bay size which is built to handle larger weapons than the F-22A.
The Joint Strike Fighter is a most curious blend of the F-22 technology base, state-of-the-art avionics and Cold War era strategic thinking - in its own way as much a Cold War anachronism as the Eurocanards. Insofar as one of its prime design aims is to shoot down the Eurocanards in the commercial dogfight, it represents an instance of an anachronistic fighter sizing strategy and associated cost structure becoming a principal design driver over achievable combat effect and long term strategic usefulness.

Iz svega navedenog mislim da je i smesno porediti F-35 sa PAK FA izuzev mozda po STELT karakteristikama, ali ce se i to promeniti sa novim motorima koji se ocekuju za PAK FA

Dopuna: 06 Dec 2010 16:58








Evo jednog interesantnog grafikona koji pokazuje ubrzanja razlicitih lovaca od 0,8 do 1,6M i njihovu maksimalnu brzinu.

Tu su oficijalni podaci lokida i procenjeni podaci sme-a.

Interesantan mi je podatak za MIG-29, jer ga amerikanci poseduju, pa je vrlo verovatno da je on tacan?!

Takodje je interesantno da F-22 nema prednost u odnosu na SU-35 i PAK FA, cak je u nekim delovima i sporiji!
Naravno ti podaci su samo procene kao i kod F-35, dok su za ostale lovce navodno izmereni ?!

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