Virtuelni dogfight

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Virtuelni dogfight

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Da obicno se zaboravlja na kontejnere za ometanje koje su Francuzi izvozili sirom sveta.

Jel se bese Eclair monitra umesto padobrana za kocenje? To bi mogao biti problem, ali opet cini mi se da je ista fora uradjena i kod Su-34 barem prema slikama sa foruma.



Registruj se da bi učestvovao u diskusiji. Registrovanim korisnicima se NE prikazuju reklame unutar poruka.
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da, to je taj uredjaj. jedan kraj je orijentisan prema napred, a drugi umesto padobrana.



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RDM radar (X-band) u Mirage 2000C S1 (first production block of the Mirage 2000) mogao je da koristi samo Magic rakete...
Ima slika na kojima nose Super 530F, ali nikada nisu mogli da ih ispaljuju.
Nisu mogli jer im je nedostajao CW (continuous-wave) illuminator...
Upravo je to kasnije stavljeno na Grčkim Mirage, pa su tako RDM u Grčkoj bili bolji od RDM na Francuskim avionima u tom pogledu, ali za to Francuze ionako nije bilo mnogo briga jer su već znali da će uvoditi RDI, koji NIKADA NIKOME nije bio prodat.
Mala digresija, SPO-15 na MiG-29 nikada ne bi mogao da pišti brzo...jer je takav zvučni signal rezervisan upravo kada detektuje continuous-wave, a to RDM u FRA nije ni imao....

Mirage 2000C S2 ima ''nabudžen'' RDM radar u modu look-down, ali bez značajnijeg povećanja deklarianih karakteristika, već samo približavanje njima.
Mirage 2000C S3 ima, sada već čuveni CW illuminator, nos je obojen u sivo. Upravo po tome se najboje razlikuju S1 i S3, jer S1 ima crn nos.
Tek Mirage sa takvim RDM radarom može da koristi, ispaljuje Super 530.

S1, S2 i S3 imaju:
RWR: Serval
ECM: Sabre
Chaff/Flare Dispensers: Eclair-Alkan LL5062

Serval (Systeme d'Ecoute Radar et de Visualisation de l'ALerte) RWR is used on the Mirage 2000.
It uses crystal video receivers, covering the E-J bands, and a hybrid analogue-digital processor. Two receiver blocks are in the wingtips, a block is mounted in the tip of the vertical tail, with an omnidirectional low band receiver below the aircraft.
Serval shows target type and direction on a CRT display. It gives a rough range indication from recieved signal strength


S1 serija sadrži prvih 15 aviona, S2 sledećih 5 komada, dok S3 preostalih 17 komada. To je ukupno onih pominjanih 37 komada sa RDM radarom u FRA. Svih 37 komada ima motor Snecma M53-5.
Od 38. aviona po redu, motor je Snecma M53-P2. RDI radar i MICA IR su postali standard...ali NIJEDAN Mirage 2000C nije mogao da nosi MICA EM.

Tih istih 37 aviona je bilo zastarelo već početkom 90-tih, pa je zato 1993. godine doneta odluka da se unaprede u standard 2000-5. Postali su operativni 2000. godine i nose oznaku Mirage 2000-5F. Imaju RDI.

Što se dvoseda tiče, prva proizvodna serija je nosila oznaku
Mirage 2000B S3 (14 komada), sličnog je nivoa kao i prve serije Mirage 2000C.
Taj dvosed nema ECM, ima isti RWR Serval kao i jednosed, nema ugrađen top.
Prva sledeća serija dvoseda je imala oznaku Mirage 2000B S4 (8 komada) i ona ima RDI radar (RDI J1-1), ali još uvek isti motor, tj. Snecma M53-5. On ima ECM Sabre.
Mirage 2000B S5 (još 8 aviona) ima napredniji RDI radar (RDI J2-4), kao i novi M53-P2 motor.

Mirage 2000N K1 (30 ili 31 aparat). Baziran na 2000B, prvo je imao oznaku P, koja je kasnije zbog poznate njegove namene preimenovana u N.
Radar je Antilope 5, motor M53-P2, RWR je Serval, ECM je Caméléon. Od V-V raketa, mogao je da ispaljuje samo Matra Magic IR, mada...znamo da mu to i nije bila primarna uloga.

Mirage 2000N K2 (44 aviona). Glavna prednost u odosu na K1 je znatno širi spektar naoružanja V-Z koje avion može da nosi, zahvaljujući dodatna 4 nosača koje K1 nije imao. Još uvek ništa od toga nije bilo navođeno (BAP 100, BAP 120, BLG 66 Belouga, SAMP 551lb, Mk.82, NRZ 68mm Matra 150 - 18 NRZ u lanseru).
Radar je i dalje Antilope 5, motor M53-P2, RWR Serval, ECM Caméléon.

Posle ide 2000D (prvi let februar 1991.)...sa unapređenim Antilope 5 radarom i sa mogućnošću nošenja laserski navođenih konvencionalnih sredstava...itd...itd...

---------------------------------

Izvozne verzije.

Egipat, naručuje još odmah na početku 80-tih, isporuke počele 1986. godine. 16 jednoseda i 4 dvoseda.
Posle i ona priča sa Indijom i ostalim kupcima, ali je važno napomenuti da su najmodernije izvozne varijante u to vreme dobili Grci. Oni su ih naručili u martu 1985. godine...Naravno i oni sa RDM radarom koji u praksi nije mogao da ispuni obećane performanse, pa je morao da ide na doradu kod Francuza...

Mirage 2000E was a blanket designation for a series of export variants of the Mirage 2000, each of which actually had a suffix that depended on the country ordering it. These aircraft were fitted with the RDM radar, as the RDI was judged too advanced for export, and were also fitted with other less sophisticated avionics.

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Čovek koji inače širi bajke po Forumu...i ''lične sumnje''...sada je pisao u tom stilu i o ECM na Mig-29...



Levi panel...prekidač broj 12:
RDR: Auto Jammer switch

Razlika je opet što:
MiG-29B-12 (Product 9.12A)
Downgraded export version for non-Warsaw Pact nations. Lacked a nuclear weapon delivery system and possessed downgraded radar, ECM and IFF. NATO reporting code is "Fulcrum-A".


Ali isto tako...

Mirage 2000E was a blanket designation for a series of export variants of the Mirage 2000, each of which actually had a suffix that depended on the country ordering it. These aircraft were fitted with the RDM radar, as the RDI was judged too advanced for export, and were also fitted with other less sophisticated avionics.

The baseline MiG-29 (the 9-12, known to NATO as 'Fulcrum-A') suffers from having a very limited range and endurance. One of the aircraft's own designers once described it as an aircraft which was optimised for the air defence of its own airfield - an exaggeration, but perhaps only a slight one. From 1982, production aircraft for the Soviet air forces (but not for export) were to 9-13 ('Fulcrum-C') standards, with an enlarged and distinctively ''humped'' dorsal spine. This housed a small increase (185 litres) in fuel capacity, together with a new L203BE active ECM jammer...

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Jedan detalj...potpuno nezavistan od ove priče, u vezi MiG-29:

...Once the canopy is closed, the pilot quickly completes his pre-start checks and then starts the engines. In wartime, for an emergency scramble, the aircraft could taxy out and take off on one engine, shaving
precious seconds if the airfield was about to come under attack. The second engine would then be started after take off...
\

Ili..ona priča kako su manevri poput Cobre samo za cirkus...za aeromitinge...

CLOSE-IN COMBAT

...the weapons computer can link the missile seekers to the pilots helmet, whose position is measured using tiny IR sensors. This allows the weapons system to ''know'' where the pilot is looking. Since the missiles can be slaved to the helmet they can thus follow the direction in which
the pilot is looking, and will automatically lock on to any target he sees. Thus the pilot only has to look at the enemy to be able to lock on his IR-homing missiles.

In a fast-moving dogfight, many MiG-29 pilots fly with the missile trigger depressed, so that if the HMS or IRST locks onto a target as it flashes past, the missile will lock on and fire automatically...

If the opponent survives the first missile, or if the MiG-29 is sucked into a turning fight with enemy survivors, the ''Archer'' is even more effective in a turning fight. With the weapons control system selector switched to
''Shlem'' (helmet) and the trigger depressed, a missile will fire automatically if either the helmet or the IRST cues the missile seeker
heads onto a target and they achieve a lock- on. This allows the pilot to designate a target and achieve lock-on without having to manoeuvre to put that target into his HUD. Essentially, if he can see the target anywhere
in the whole windscreen, he can fire a missile.
And as if that were not enough, the pilot can momentarily drag the nose of the MiG-29 up to 90° away from the direction of flight by performing the equivalent to an airshow ''Cobra'' manoeuvre. This can be
enough to give the MiG-29 pilot a missile snapshot against a target flying directly opposite him on the other side of a circle, or a target flying directly above him...


...Even without a helmet-mounted sight the MiG-29 is a superb
dogfighter, thanks to the pilot's ability to point the nose of his aircraft
away from the direction of flight.



BVR COMBAT

Tekst je pisao pilot F-16 koji je leteo na nemačkim 29-kama...

...Quite honestly if the MiG-29 pilot can find you and lock you up
on radar and you're in his parameters, you are in serious danger. Therefore we work hard at not being seen and if we are seen, we try to defeat the radar and make him not see us anymore. The last part is, if he can still see us and launches against us, then obviously we'll try to defeat the missile. But we respect it, it's a good missile...

I can't talk too much about the systems that we have to counter ''Alamo'', but in general it would be fair to say that we respect the ''Archer'' more than the ''Alamo''. And so do the pilots who fly it. Overall, their BVR capability represents a Sparrow level of threat. That's not necessarily the fault of the missile though. There are other problems that they have to contend with. One such problem is that the display of the MiG-29 radar contacts is not anything like what we in the west put in our cockpits for pilots. Thus they don't get anywhere as much situational awareness,
even though they've got a fairly good detection capability. The radar is powerful and flexible, but they don't have the on-board processing to give the pilot a decent, clear picture with the threats analysed and
prioritised, stuff that we take for granted.

The pilot has a very hard time knowing who he's locked on to and what the situation is, so not only do we enjoy a significant advantage with
our long range Amram missile, but crucially we also enjoy a significant situational awareness advantage. This means that we could qujte often get somebody into the fight unseen, just because their system would not
permit them to see the whole engagement.

That's the key reason why they are so reliant on GC1 or AWACS control. The Germans can overcome the radar deficiencies by operating mixed formations of F-4 Phantoms and MiG- 29s, while other MiG-29 operators may also have fighters which could operate mixed
fighter force tactics with their 'Fulcrums'. A nightmare scenario could be Iranian MiG-29s operating alongside Iranian F-14 Tomcats, for instance, or Malaysian MiG-29s with F/A-18Ds or British Hawk 200s...


Even the firing procedure is much more ''labour-intensive'' in the MiG-29 than it is in the F-16. If we shoot a BVR missile we get everything we need in the HUD...
...One of the things that dominates the MiG-29 panel is a clock. It's a huge instrument, but it's just a clock. When he fires a BVR missile he has to work out the missile's flight time himself - 'if the missile flies ten miles in one minute, and I'm launching at twelve miles, then I'll need to illuminate the target for one minute twelve seconds' and he has to hack the stopwatch button on the clock as he fires. He then has to watch until the hand in the small dial gets right round and back to the twelve, ignoring the big second hand. This is hardly high-tech stuff. That same basic clock came out of the MiG-23, that same basic clock is in the MiG- 21. It's an old fashioned mechanical wind-up clock (you'd better make sure that the ground crew remembered to wind it this morning!).

Of course when they get an active-homing missile, a genuinely fire-and-forget weapon, all of that will be history. But at the moment,
when a MiG-29 pilot enters a BVR engagement he relies on the 'Alamo'. All he knows is range and he gets a little tick on his radar scope showing that his target is within missile range parameters...

...But I'm sure that if you went out and trained and trained and trained with it, you would get good at it - you know, it's a video game and you would get good at playing it. But at the end of the day, all the radar and
BVR stuff is a bit of a distraction anyway - that's not really what the MiG-29's about. Chances are, if we are worrying about the MiG-29 in a BVR scenario it will be operating with GCI or AWACS, or other fighters, and its weaknesses will be compensated for by those other platforms, and by jamming, etc. The MiG-29 will just bring more missiles to the
fight...


...Every MiG-29 has RHAWS, every MiG-29 has a data link, most Soviet MiG-29s had an internal built-in active jammer, all MiG-29s have a
generous load of chaff/flare expendables - and after Afghanistan, there's at least a possibility that their's might be better than ours...


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Neki drugi podaci...od nemačkih pilota...nešto od ovoga je čini mi se već postavljano na Forumu vezano za manju snagu njihovih motora zbog goriva, ali ovde još par detalja o drugim delovima opreme koje oni nisu imali...

MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircraft's superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles I'm
hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ''Archer'' I can't be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario.

F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ''Archers''. We didn't operate kill removal (forcing ''killed'' aircraft to leave the fight) since they'd have got no training value, we killed them too quickly.
(Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn't believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!

They might not like it, but with a 28°/sec instantaneous turn rate (compared to the Block 50 F-16C's 26°) we can out-turn them...
Our stable, manually controlled airplane can out-turn their FBW aircraft. But the real edge we have is the ''Archer'' which can reliably
lock on to targets 45° off-boresight.
I should stress that I'm talking about our Luftwaffe MiG-29s, which are early aircraft. They also removed the Laszlo data link and the SRO IFF before the aircraft were handed over to us, so in some respects we're less
capable than other contemporary MiG-29s...


Dopuna: 07 Okt 2010 17:50

sebab ::...postojanje ecm. mirage 2000 ga ima (dassault sabre u korenu repa, ne pise da ga 2000e nema), mig29 nema.

From 1982,production aircraft for the Soviet air forces (but not for export) were to 9-13 ('Fulcrum-C') standards, with an enlarged and distinctively ''humped'' dorsal spine. This housed a small increase (185 litres) in fuel capacity, together with a new L203BE active ECM jammer...

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Citat:Downgraded export version for non-Warsaw Pact nations. Lacked a nuclear weapon delivery system and possessed downgraded radar, ECM and IFF. NATO reporting code is "Fulcrum-A".

Koji je to ometac na 9-12B? MiG-29 Fulcrum-A nema nikakav sistem za PED.

Citat:From 1982,production aircraft for the Soviet air forces (but not for export) were to 9-13 ('Fulcrum-C') standards, with an enlarged and distinctively ''humped'' dorsal spine. This housed a small increase (185 litres) in fuel capacity, together with a new L203BE active ECM jammer...

9-13 se pojavio 1983. prepravkom standardnih 9-12, ispirivanja su pocela 1984. a proizvodnja je pocela 1986.

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Citat:
9-13 se pojavio 1983. prepravkom standardnih 9-12, ispirivanja su pocela 1984. a proizvodnja je pocela 1986.


uzeo si mi rec iz us...sa tastature.
Nego jel bese 9-13 poceo da stize u jedinice pocetkom 1987?

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Jeste. tako pise u literaturi.

Evo isecka iz Gordonove knjige gde se vidi da 9-12 nema nikakav sistem za PED.

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Sem sto nije imao PED nije ni mogao da nosi kontejnere za ometanje. Ja licno smatram da su kontejneri znatno sposobniji od nekog malog sistema koji se ugradjuje u avion.

Dopuna: 07 Okt 2010 19:14

R-27R vs. Super 530


Citat:http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-mirage2000-su30-1.html
With their high power and ballistic parameters, Su-30MK 's long-range air-to-air missiles allow it to deliver preventive attacks. In terms of range, these missiles surpass French AAMs of a similar class by 20-30 per cent (for example, Mirage's Super Matra) and can maintain large advantage zones in long-range air combat.


Neko bi mozda mogao reci da je u pitanju 530F. Nije posto je u tekstu na slici indijski Miraz sa 530D. A da ne bude zabune autor misli na R-27R jer kaze raketa slicne klase. Ne misli na R-77 ili na R-27 sa jacim motorom jer nisu u klasi 530D, a i na slici u tekstu su R-27R.

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A mozda su ustvari efikasni dometi R-27R i Super 530D skoro izjednaceni?

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zixo ::A mozda su ustvari efikasni dometi R-27R i Super 530D skoro izjednaceni?

Citat:and can maintain large advantage zones in long-range air combat.

Ako su izjednaceni cemu onda ovaj deo recenice Wink

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zixo ::Citat:Downgraded export version for non-Warsaw Pact nations. Lacked a nuclear weapon delivery system and possessed downgraded radar, ECM and IFF. NATO reporting code is "Fulcrum-A".

Koji je to ometac na 9-12B? MiG-29 Fulcrum-A nema nikakav sistem za PED.


Pa, to i piše...da su izvozne verzije za države koje nisu bile članice VU imale lošiji radar i da nisu imale (lacked) ECM, IFF, nuclear weapon delivery system...
Bar ja tako shvatam tu rečenicu...

SSSR MiG-29, naročito prvi primerci nisu imali ECM, kasije dobijaju neki zastareli (ne znam oznaku), onda from 1982,production aircraft for the Soviet air forces (but not for export) were to 9-13 ('Fulcrum-C') standards, with an enlarged and distinctively ''humped'' dorsal spine. This housed a small increase (185 litres) in fuel capacity, together with a new L203BE active ECM jammer...

Vidi se i da u kabini imaju prekidač za Jammer...

Dopuna: 07 Okt 2010 21:00

Inače, ti citati su odavde:



http://www.scribd.com/doc/4007751/Mikoyan-MiG29-Fulcrum

Treba više vremena da se učita...i mnogo više da se sve pročita... Cool

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